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Official Episode Discussion 2.21: "The Sun Also Rises"

  • Avatar of puppybunny1

    puppybunny1

    [21]May 6, 2011
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    I love how Aunt Jenna and Uncle John went out with a BANG!The weakest characters end up being the strongest.



    Speculation:


    I am hoping that if Klaus kills Elijiah, then Elijiah will redeem himself by saving Damon. I doubt that Damon will die.


    I am hoping that Tyler will turn Jeremy into a Werewolf and Bonnie will keep them both from turning with a spell or something.

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  • Avatar of gatoraderising

    gatoraderising

    [22]May 6, 2011
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    I thought this was a good ep. In the end John wasn't that bad of a guy like we thought he was in season 1. Why does Bonnie try to talk all powerful? Like when Elijah was thinking about not killing Klaus and Bonnie said she would take them both out. Get over yourself you couldn't even kill a weak Klaus without killing yourself and now your threating TWO Original's. I don't have a problem with Elijah not killing Klaus. His only reason for waiting Klaus dead is he thought he killed and dumped their family at sea. Which it turn's out Klaus just kiiled them and was hiding their bodies. Can't blame Elijah for picking his family over Stefan and the rest of them. Wonder what Klaus has planned for Stefan.... maybe turning him into a Hybrid??

    Edited on 05/06/2011 6:37am
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  • Avatar of daisy54

    daisy54

    [23]May 6, 2011
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    Good ep, but I felt like they downplayed Bonnie. All we have been hearing is how she is the key to saving everyone blah blah blah, and then she performs a quick spell on John, shouts at Klaus and in the end doesn't kill him. Wasn't that the whole point of it?

    I was a little shocked that John died, but once I saw Jenna at the end of the last ep I had a feeling she was a goner.

    Guess we will find out what happens the Damon next week!
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  • Avatar of ionee24

    ionee24

    [24]May 6, 2011
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    daisy54 wrote:
    Good ep, but I felt like they downplayed Bonnie. All we have been hearing is how she is the key to saving everyone blah blah blah, and then she performs a quick spell on John, shouts at Klaus and in the end doesn't kill him. Wasn't that the whole point of it?


    The Vampire Diaries has a misogynistic approach in general so they can't have a girl save the day, especially not one that is not dating the Salvatore brothers. So, of course, Stefan had to be standing there, otherwise people might think female characters can kick ass too and this show just.won't.have.it.


    Sarcasm aside, the way this show continues to diminsh women its outrageous.

    Edited on 05/06/2011 10:15am
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    isildurelendil

    [25]May 6, 2011
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    Pretty dark episode. Despite so many deaths, I've never the level of hopelessness I did in this one in any other episode. From the looks of it, Damon's degeneration is not gonna be pretty and Bonnie looks like she's gonna pay a price for all that power. I expected Jenna to die but not John. Anyway, it probably sucks to be Elena right now. Not only has she lost all the parental figures in her life but the fact that she doesn't even get vengeance on Klaus as some level of solace must add salt to the wounds. Now all that's left is the finale.

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  • Avatar of Kitanishi

    Kitanishi

    [26]May 6, 2011
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    isildurelendil wrote:

    Pretty dark episode. Despite so many deaths, I've never the level of hopelessness I did in this one in any other episode. From the looks of it, Damon's degeneration is not gonna be pretty and Bonnie looks like she's gonna pay a price for all that power. I expected Jenna to die but not John. Anyway, it probably sucks to be Elena right now. Not only has she lost all the parental figures in her life but the fact that she doesn't even get vengeance on Klaus as some level of solace must add salt to the wounds. Now all that's left is the finale.



    And who wants to bet Elena came back somehow wrong or gets turned in the finale due to some mistake anyway, making John's sacrifice worthless?

    This show just might have the balls to do that.
    Edited on 05/06/2011 10:57am
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  • Avatar of gamrgrl007

    gamrgrl007

    [27]May 6, 2011
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    gamrgrl007 wrote:
    Kitanishi wrote:
    despite an unexpected act of courage. - Calling it. Jenna tries to defend Elena by rushing Klaus and ends up dead.

    I'd only disagree with the unexpected act of courage - Jenna trying to help Elena would be expected; if something is mentioned specifically, I suppose it would be REALLY unexpected. Maybe Stefan doing something at last Seriously though, maybe Uncle John sacrifices himself for Elena.


    I kind of was sure Uncle John would sacrifice himself for Elena but the way he did it massively annoyed me. What was that random woman-child story? That entire inexplicable, idiotic process when questioned, the big-snap 'answer' was call it God, mystical energy, whatever? Hello, that's NOT okay! This isn't a late night faith healing infomercial! That way at any time ANY story can be made up on the fly to revert ANY situation. Then why is everyone stressing about Damon's were-bite - I'm sure Gilbert's magic journal has a solution to that also!!! This even topped that soap mess.

    Jenna, of course, died on cue, and somehow keeping Alaric out of the process lessened its impact on me - it made the whole death unfortunately Elena-centric and not death-centric. I liked Greta's neat and clean end. Elijah's volte face was a good twist too, now we have two uber-villains pitted against each other as much as everyone else.

    Bonnie was possibly the biggest anti-climax of the season - first she spends most of the episode reading (?!), then arrives almost after the party is over for a bit of fireworks, an empty threat and *poot* At least she's ALIVE, since everyone was pretty much okay with everyone else dying EXCEPT Bonnie.

    Related but belated question:

    Who did everyone think would be the original vamp to be sacrificed? Caroline? If yes, then why was only Damon concerned about her (indirectly of course, he was trying to disrupt the ritual, not save her originally)? And when Caroline was removed, who did everyone think would be the replacement vamp since no one imagined the whole Jenna thing?

    I hope Katherine doesn't die next eppy trying to do something to save Damon. Their conversation about a goodbye was kinda freaky and I hope she won't become a softie of some sort. I'd like to see her in S3 too. And no more 'divine interventions', please.

    FAILS:

    Matt (as usual)
    Stefan (as usual)
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  • Avatar of angeland8

    angeland8

    [28]May 6, 2011
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    As for all the deaths - I say good riddance. Elijah surprised me, and Klaus turned out to be really interesting.


    Caroline and Tyler were so perfect, still my favourites. Though I liked Matt for the first time - when he talked about his life. At least someone in Mystic falls has to think about job, school and, you know, money.


    I wonder how they will save Damon (and they better do).

    Edited on 05/06/2011 3:56pm
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  • Avatar of toridiva

    toridiva

    [29]May 6, 2011
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    I was just let down. Where was the Bonnie Vs Greta showdown....and they should have clued her in on her father and brother

    Stefan was literally useless in this episode.

    Jenna went out on a good note as John did but I do feel like this

    A)should have been the finale

    B) it should've been two hours

    it is funny that the last 2 episodes literally coincide within the matter of a day and a half lol
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  • Avatar of Ingelief

    Ingelief

    [30]May 6, 2011
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    Why when she had all the time, wait read and then come to late *bonnie*


    i dont get that all season long its about bonnie powers to safe the day.. and now??


    And no way Eilajah hates klaus for so many 100 years and then let klaus talk to him to let him live..



    I cryed for elena so sad.... I think she is normal because otherwise the death of john was for nothing and at the funeral time later she did not feel anything or we would know it..


    What going to be next?

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  • Avatar of d_mandal_0

    d_mandal_0

    [31]May 6, 2011
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    toridiva wrote:
    I was just let down. Where was the Bonnie Vs Greta showdown....and they should have clued her in on her father and brother...
    What would Elena tell her? That they killed her entire family? That would help Elena how? Besides, I got the distinct impression Greta wouldn't stop helping Klaus no matter what. She obviously wasn't coerced - she actively supported Klaus and wanted to help create the New World Order or whatever. What a cliche - this show does use a lot of stuff-we've-all-seen-a-hundred-times-before. Speaking of which, why introduce this soul business this late into the show's progress? Why weren't we told before that Vampires lose their souls when they're turned? I don't mind the show "borrowing" (to put it mildly) shtick from other shows but at least introduce the ideas beforehand, not when you need it to get around a plot hurdle. Let's not even go into the "how do they retain their humanity if they have no souls" plot-hole this creates.


    Also someone clear something up for me please. Klaus killed his entire family a bazillion years ago and kept the bodies somewhere and told Elijah that he had just disposed of them at sea. And now Elijah broke his promise to Elena and went back on his word to Stefan to see his dead-a-bazillion-years-ago family's rotted carcasses.


    Did I get that wrong somehow? Because as it is, it makes no sense to me. First of all why would Klaus even lie about having disposed of the bodies? What purpose could that serve? Also, what happens after Elijah gets his eyeful of all his precious skeletons? He's now got a mega pissed off hybrid brother who's mad Elijah turned on him in the first place. I must be missing something.

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  • Avatar of tv_freakaziod

    tv_freakaziod

    [32]May 6, 2011
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    toridiva wrote:
    I was just let down. Where was the Bonnie Vs Greta showdown....and they should have clued her in on her father and brother

    Stefan was literally useless in this episode.

    Jenna went out on a good note as John did but I do feel like this

    A)should have been the finale

    B) it should've been two hours

    it is funny that the last 2 episodes literally coincide within the matter of a day and a half lol
    YES it should have been the season finale and two hours, so much more could have happened with an extra hour! And OMG yes he was literally useless.

    But this is what I have to say...why Aunt Jenna, I liked Aunt Jenna. I don't think it's fair! I want her to come back! I hope that they have some kind of surprise in store for us. I mean just as she found everything out she get's turned and killed so not fair! Elena has lost every parent that she's had now. I don't really care about Uncle John, what he did, yes was courageous!

    When I was watching the end when Elena was putting the flowers on the ground I half expected Jenna's hand to pop out of the grave and grab Elena's showing us she's not dead. But that was just wishful thinking I guess.
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  • Avatar of CortezDC

    CortezDC

    [33]May 6, 2011
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    I really liked this episode, but I did have problems with it.


    First off: Am I the only one who had a problem with Bonnie and Jeremy just sitting around reading? I know they were trying to find a way to save Elena, but it was like they had no clue that the sacrifice had even started. If they hadn't, I felt like the other characters should have told them sooner.


    Also, I'm pissed at Elijah, because Jenna practically died for no reason at all, because the ritual basically happened without a hitch (Klaus still awakened his werewolf half)


    I did have a problem with Greta not finding out about her family. True, she probably wouldn't care, but so much of the season was devoted to Luca and Jonas trying to find her, and I think she should have at least known that they'd died for her. Also, I was expected a showdown between Bonnie and Greta, but Damon just comes in and snaps her neck. But, thinking about, it does make sense. Why would Bonnie use unnecessary power trying to kill Greta when Damon could do it and she could focus all her energy on Klaus?


    Who else thinks that Klaus wanted to keep Stefan around because, once the ritual was over, he wanted to turn Stefan into a hybrid as some sort of prototype? It would have made Stefan more interesting.


    For those who are saying that the show never made clear that vampires don't have souls, they're DEAD. Generally when someone is dead, they're said to be absent of a soul. It seems like people forget that vampires are dead, just because they walk around. And with the whole humanity thing: that's what makes it hard for them to be human, because they aren't. Stefan says that he fights to not kill Elena everyday, and that's not human. He wants to be good because he was a good person in life, and being a vampire magnifies your personality traits. He said himself that he cared about when people felt pain when he was alive, so it's really no surprise that he lives the way he does.


    I liked Caroline and Tyler and Matt in this episode, but I didn't really like how they were out of the loop of things. It was the same way in the Last Dance.


    I do kind of feel like the John soul thingy was out of the blue, but IMO I think this was done, because Elena didn't come back normal, otherwise the whole thing would kind of feel like deus ex machina. I did like how he sacrificed himself for her, because all he's done, despite the way he goes about, is try to keep his daughter safe.


    Katherine wasn't really in this episode, but I'm glad that she showed that she did care about Damon. However, I don't want her to become good, because that would make her too much like Elena.


    We see Damon struggling with the werewolf bite in how shaky some of his movements are. I also liked how they showed that, despite everything, he still loves his brother. If the show really decides to kill him off, I would be surprised. However, by the looks of the next episode, it would kind of make sense if they did. I mean, he's practically been the "evil brother", so by him seeking forgiveness, it would be the ultimate send off, because he would be redeeming himself. Although, I doubt they'll go down that route.


    I felt like the Jenna funeral was handled properly with her being buried with the Gilberts. But what about John? was he buried too? I must have missed it. I liked the bit with the letter he gave Elena. I think Elena and Jeremy are going to be living with Damon and Stefan or they could go live with Bonnie, because it would be the perfect oppurtunity to get to know her parents.


    Sorry for the long post lol. I wasn't expecting it to be that long, but I did like the episode.

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  • Avatar of d_mandal_0

    d_mandal_0

    [34]May 6, 2011
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    CortezDC wrote:


    ...


    For those who are saying that the show never made clear that vampires don't have souls, they're DEAD. Generally when someone is dead, they're said to be absent of a soul.


    ...


    I do kind of feel like the John soul thingy was out of the blue, but IMO I think this was done, because Elena didn't come back normal, otherwise the whole thing would kind of feel like deus ex machina. I did like how he sacrificed himself for her, because all he's done, despite the way he goes about, is try to keep his daughter safe.


    Katherine wasn't really in this episode, but I'm glad that she showed that she did care about Damon. However, I don't want her to become good, because that would make her too much like Elena.


    We see Damon struggling with the werewolf bite in how shaky some of his movements are. I also liked how they showed that, despite everything, he still loves his brother. If the show really decides to kill him off, I would be surprised. However, by the looks of the next episode, it would kind of make sense if they did. I mean, he's practically been the "evil brother", so by him seeking forgiveness, it would be the ultimate send off, because he would be redeeming himself. Although, I doubt they'll go down that route.


    I felt like the Jenna funeral was handled properly with her being buried with the Gilberts. But what about John? was he buried too? I must have missed it. I liked the bit with the letter he gave Elena. I think Elena and Jeremy are going to be living with Damon and Stefan or they could go live with Bonnie, because it would be the perfect oppurtunity to get to know her parents.


    Sorry for the long post lol. I wasn't expecting it to be that long, but I did like the episode.



    They're dead so they lose their soul. That's a reasonable enough explanation. But other shows where they say Vampires don't have their souls anymore, point out that that is why they have no humanity. Not just reduced humanity or switch-off-able humanity like the vamps in tvd-verse, but that without a soul there is no concept of humanity so they're pure evil.


    Anyway, since this soulless-ness was introduced to serve that particular plot device out of the blue as you say, I just don't want future plot-lines centered around this concept. Seriously, the vampires with no souls shtick has been done a thousand times already. The show could do without the concept of souls and all the religious stuff that comes along with it.


    I do NOT think Katherine will turn good. That would just kill off her whole appeal. Damon's not gonna die. C'mon does anybody really think Damon will be killed off? No way that's gonna happen. Not permanently anyway.


    John's absence at the cemetery bugged me too. Didn't they notice he's dead? Where else are they going to bury him if not there? Jenna's not even a Gilbert.


    Bonnie's parents. Astounding how I never even thought about that. Bonnie's the only main character whose parents we've never even heard of let alone seen. We know her Gran and even her cousin but no mention of her parents?!!

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    safibwana

    [35]May 6, 2011
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    d_mandal_0 wrote:


    CortezDC wrote:


    I felt like the Jenna funeral was handled properly with her being buried with the Gilberts. But what about John? was he buried too? I must have missed it. I liked the bit with the letter he gave Elena. I think Elena and Jeremy are going to be living with Damon and Stefan or they could go live with Bonnie, because it would be the perfect oppurtunity to get to know her parents.



    John's absence at the cemetery bugged me too. Didn't they notice he's dead? Where else are they going to bury him if not there? Jenna's not even a Gilbert.



    I'm confused. I thought I saw her put down four roses for four graves. Jenna, John, Mom, Dad. No?

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    CheckeredYcats

    [36]May 6, 2011
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    John was buried there as well. There were two new graves there.

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    haldrey

    [37]May 6, 2011
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    To all unemployed actors, this show is looking for new characters for next season, apply in person
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    kosmos100

    [38]May 7, 2011
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    the episode takes place at night, why all the scenes with Caroline and Tyler in the house are at daylight?.

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    gamrgrl007

    [39]May 7, 2011
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    d_mandal_0 wrote:


    CortezDC wrote:


    ...


    For those who are saying that the show never made clear that vampires don't have souls, they're DEAD. Generally when someone is dead, they're said to be absent of a soul.


    ...


    I do kind of feel like the John soul thingy was out of the blue, but IMO I think this was done, because Elena didn't come back normal, otherwise the whole thing would kind of feel like deus ex machina...


    We see Damon struggling with the werewolf bite in how shaky some of his movements are. I also liked how they showed that, despite everything, he still loves his brother. If the show really decides to kill him off, I would be surprised. However, by the looks of the next episode, it would kind of make sense if they did. I mean, he's practically been the "evil brother", so by him seeking forgiveness, it would be the ultimate send off, because he would be redeeming himself. Although, I doubt they'll go down that route.


    I felt like the Jenna funeral was handled properly with her being buried with the Gilberts. But what about John? was he buried too? I must have missed it. I liked the bit with the letter he gave Elena. I think Elena and Jeremy are going to be living with Damon and Stefan or they could go live with Bonnie, because it would be the perfect oppurtunity to get to know her parents.



    They're dead so they lose their soul. That's a reasonable enough explanation. But other shows where they say Vampires don't have their souls anymore, point out that that is why they have no humanity. Not just reduced humanity or switch-off-able humanity like the vamps in tvd-verse, but that without a soul there is no concept of humanity so they're pure evil.


    Anyway, since this soulless-ness was introduced to serve that particular plot device out of the blue as you say, I just don't want future plot-lines centered around this concept. Seriously, the vampires with no souls shtick has been done a thousand times already. The show could do without the concept of souls and all the religious stuff that comes along with it.


    I do NOT think Katherine will turn good. That would just kill off her whole appeal. Damon's not gonna die. C'mon does anybody really think Damon will be killed off? No way that's gonna happen. Not permanently anyway.


    John's absence at the cemetery bugged me too. Didn't they notice he's dead? Where else are they going to bury him if not there? Jenna's not even a Gilbert.


    Bonnie's parents. Astounding how I never even thought about that. Bonnie's the only main character whose parents we've never even heard of let alone seen. We know her Gran and even her cousin but no mention of her parents?!!


    I cannot agree more about the random soul story. It ruined the plot of John's sacrifice for me because there was no head or tail of it. John knew the Gilbert journals had that info in there so he was waiting for what? I actually still am not sure WTH happened with this plot. And I agree that we don't need God and stuff in this story. Then it moves away from acceptable twists to folklore and becomes religious and debatable at a whole different plane.


    And using inexplicable tools to get past plot points created for no long-term implication is the worst kind of story-writing. What was the point of Elena being fed vamp blood for one episode if it was going to be reversed so ridiculously? She already has a hundred issues with Damon, this didn't add to that story - and eliminating John could have been done equally - if not more - heroically than this slapdash business.


    Damon's obviously not gonna die. It's HOW he lives that's to be seen.


    But with casualness that TVD has been batting aside mega hurdles - moonstone in a soapdish, soul transferring shenanigans, Bonnie randomly being powerful to do whatever the task-du-jour is, nothing is out of range now.


    As for John's burial, there are two freshly dug graves that Elena places two roses on, and the other two on her parents' joint grave.


    Bonnie lives with her father. This was said way back in S1 when she came to visit her Grams. Her mother is divorced from her father and lives elsewhere, also said in S1.


    Elena and Jeremy can live by themselves, and if Elena's over 18 by next season, she can become Jeremy's 'guardian'. I hope they don't introduce a long-lost relative from somewhere just to add a story here.


    d_mandal_0 wrote:
    Also someone clear something up for me please. Klaus killed his entire family a bazillion years ago and kept the bodies somewhere and told Elijah that he had just disposed of them at sea. And now Elijah broke his promise to Elena and went back on his word to Stefan to see his dead-a-bazillion-years-ago family's rotted carcasses. Did I get that wrong somehow? Because as it is, it makes no sense to me. First of all why would Klaus even lie about having disposed of the bodies? What purpose could that serve? Also, what happens after Elijah gets his eyeful of all his precious skeletons?


    That would probably be the main story of S3 - WHY Elijah wanted to know where the bodies are and why Klaus lied about disposing them at sea - they're the original vamps so maybe their bodies can be harnessed for a solution to get rid of Klaus.


    kosmos100 wrote:
    the episode takes place at night, why all the scenes with Caroline and Tyler in the house are at daylight?.


    Caroline / Tyler part happens in the morning when they wake up.

    Edited on 05/07/2011 5:15am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Kitanishi

    Kitanishi

    [40]May 8, 2011
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    gamrgrl007 wrote:

    Anyway, since this soulless-ness was introduced to serve that particular plot device out of the blue as you say, I just don't want future plot-lines centered around this concept. Seriously, the vampires with no souls shtick has been done a thousand times already. The show could do without the concept of souls and all the religious stuff that comes along with it.



    Thats not the worst part.

    The worst part is that they pulled the whole "oops elena has blood in her system but goes out alright" thing SECOND TIME already. Last time it was glossed over fast and everyone went on being friends and we are supposed to believe that this SECOND time the same trick is pulled and the same outcome comes out, Elena somehow is all furious? Not to mention that the fact that its basically SAME situation and SAME outcome, makes the whole spell even cheaper.

    I feel they were planning to kill Jeremy and John at the end of season 1 but decided to leave them due to popularity. So now they need to find ways to get rid of them. So john goes out in contrived "trade souls spell" thing and Jeremy dies n this finale, probably.

    well, don't get me wrong, this episode was PERFECT otherwise, but for this one big convulted spell mess up I certainly hope the finale makes up for it somehow. It has been hyped as the biggest thing ever that changes everything, so it better damn live up to the hype.

    I could care less about religious stuff. In fact this needs it, considering its inevitable that they will
    ***SPOILER***
    just like in the books, before the show ends.
    Edited on 05/08/2011 3:26am
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