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The Walking Dead S04E04: "Indifference"

Whoa WHOA WHOA! Did what I think happened just actually happen? Can Rick really do that? Does he have the authority to kick Carol out of the group just because she killed a couple people? That doesn't seem that fair. Decisions, decisions, decisions were at the center of "Indifference," the spiritual successor to Season 3's excellent "Clear." But whereas "Clear" ended with hope and togetherness (and, okay, crippling mental illness for Morgan), "Indifference" tore people apart and left everyone incredibly bummed. You know the drill, the worse things get for the survivors—a group that's changed quite a bit since the start of the zombie apocalypse—the better The Walking Dead is. And "Indifference" was the best character-driven episode of the refocused season, probably because everyone wanted to kill themselves by the time it ended. 

But for as good as this episode was, not very much happened! Aside from Rick's big decision at the end and Bob's big battle with the bottle, "Indifference" mostly consisted of 1) a lot of talking and 2) people walking around in scary buildings. However, both of those elements counter-balanced one another, resulting in an impressive hour of drama. I don't think I have to tell you that walking around in scary buildings is one of the things The Walking Dead does best; if the series was just Daryl and Michonne clearing out run-down department stores, I'd still watch. But it might take a little more convincing for most people to get on board with the idea that talking is now one of the series' strong suits. Yes, I just said that, and yes, I actually believe that. 

It's probably best to split this discussion up in two parts, so I'll start with Rick and Carol because I loved every part of it even though it shattered my heart into tiny pieces. As Rick is wont to do, he invited Carol to tag along for a supply run so that he could get to know her better, kind of like when The Bachelor's Bachelor invites the quiet chick out on a one-on-one date because she's not opening up to him (in every sense of the word). Rick did the same thing with Michonne back in "Clear," but I'm guessing it was for a difference reason. In that case, Rick wanted to confirm positives he'd seen in Michonne. With Carol, Rick was looking to confirm the negatives. I don't know at what point Rick decided the best idea was to kick Carol out of the group, but part of me wonders whether he considered doing something more... grave. Did you see the way he eyeballed that knapsack of knives when he was packing the Hyundai Tucson (with revolutionary new auto-cleaning feature)? I got the feeling that he knew from the start that shit was going to go down one way or the other. 


Carol has been transformed into Season 4's Shane (without the head-rubbing or stomping tantrums)—the survivalist who's willing to do whatever it takes to keep people safe. If you've read my reviews of The Walking Dead in the past, then you know how much I loved Shane. Not necessarily for his way of thinking, but because his status as the "hard truth" guy made the show that much better. The same was true for Carol this week. She was right when she said the group needed person who would make the difficult decisions that Rick wasn't willing to make anymore. Everything Carol did—weapons training for kids, toasting infected Karen and David, splashing Lizzy over the head with an ice-cold bucket of reality—was for the benefit of the group. She just did it all in, let's say, "extreme" ways. 

And though this was a very different Carol than the one we're used to from earlier seasons, her evolution was nicely punctuated in "Indifference." "You fight, and fight, you don't give up, and then one day... you change," she told that horrible little rat Lizzy. "We all change." For Carol, that change came when we weren't looking (between seasons?). I just loved how steadfast she was about what she did. She never apologized, and even though she didn't say so, if she was faced with the same situation all over again, she wouldn't do anything differently. Only next time, she'd probably do a better job of hiding the bodies. But what really sold me on this new, indifferent Carol was Melissa McBride's performance. She never broke that feeling of distance and removal that comes from switching gears from nurturer to Sergeant-at-Arms. "You don't have to like what I did, Rick," she said. "I don't. You just accept it." How great was her delivery on that line? This was the new Carol, and in her own words, the "strong" Carol. 

At least Carol has a good idea of who she is now, and The Walking Dead put her line of thinking right on the table. Rick still does not who he is. He's had more flip-flops than the bottom of Lake Tahoe. He's the man of the people, then he's the Ricktator, then he's the guy haunted by his horrible wife's ghost, then he's a farmer. He trusts people, he doesn't trust people, then he trusts them again. "You can be a farmer, Rick," Carol told him. "But you can't just be a farmer." And she's right. Rick's stubborn 'tude about picking up a gun is detrimental to the group. Dude! You're a COP with FIREARMS training. Yes, you should have a gun, and yes, you should use it ALL THE TIME. Hershel is a farmer, let him tend the tomatoes. And if you're not going to step up and be the leader, then you can't get upset when others do.


Which begs the question, "Who was the dick here?" Well, everyone, really. That's to be expected when people are dealing with the stress of trying not to be eaten. The Walking Dead knows that its core theme is the lengths people will go to survive, and that's simplified in the question of how much humanity survivors should hang onto. Carol has reached the point where she's an extremist; Rick has been speeding off in the other direction. Neither side is ever the only right answer on this show, and what makes it great is that viewers can find themselves pulled equally in both directions. Do I agree with what Carol did to Karen and David? No, but as a big-picture dude, I get it. However, the dilemma is strong enough that I can also see Rick's side. Carol can't play doctor, judge, and executioner whenever someone sneezes. 

Which brings us to Rick's decision to give Carol the boot. So many mixed emotions about this. I'm angry! I'm sad! I'm understanding! I'm feeling helpless! That's why I like this development, even though I love Carol. Again, the best part of this new Carol is what she adds to the show, so I don't want to see her leave. But what would've happened if she stayed? Rick would've been forced to tell Tyreese what Carol did, and Tyreese would've uppercutted Carol to the moon or slammed her on the ground back and forth like Bam-Bam. In that sense, Rick did Carol a favor by sending her packing. I still think Rick jumped the gun, though. There's still time for Carol to redeem herself, and she's thinking very clearly, unlike Shane was. And my oh my, kicking someone out on their own is almost worse than shooting them in the head. I wouldn't be surprised if we never saw Carol again—The Walking Dead has no problem ditching characters—but at least we can hope that we'll see her again. Maybe Rick runs into her new group, maybe she bangs at the prison gates begging for forgiveness, maybe she'll be proven right. This is the sad, painful reality of survival. I WILL ALWAYS MISS YOU CAROL AND I WILL THINK ABOUT YOU FOREVER! I WILL FIND YOU AND BRING YOU CLEAN BLANKETS THAT SMELL LIKE DARYL!

Change was staring in the faces of the other carload of people, too. Tyreese was literally having problems letting go (what was the point of holding onto that zombie?), Michonne was coming to terms with the fact that her revenge quest is fizzling out, and Bob really, really, really wanted some cognac. Daryl was just Daryl, though. That guy is solid like a rock and always should be. Honestly, I thought I had more to say about this half of the episode than I actually do. 

I will say that Bob's potential "I'm an alcoholic!" story is not something I'm looking forward to if The Walking Dead chooses to move forward with it. While I'm fully aware that alcoholism is a real thing that's terrible, it's been done to death on television, and it's the 527th most interesting story I'd like to see during a zombie apocalypse. Booze troubles on a show like Parenthood? Sure, go for it. But on The Walking Dead? No thanks. 

However, while we're here, I hope Michonne was serious about easing up on the Governor. This season has been great without him, and even though I know he's coming back (David Morrissey wasn't sitting across a table from me at Comic-Con because he had nothing else to do), I'm enjoying the time away from him. Oh God I just had a scary thought. What if he returned to the prison while Rick, Tyreese, Bob, Michonne, Daryl, and Carol were all gone? Who weas left to defend the prison? Stumpy Hershel? Sick Glenn? It'd be just Maggie, Beth, and Carl, and in that situation, I like the Governor's chances. 

"Indifference" was a smartly timed road-trip episode that gave us a break from the virus storyline and put the focus on characters in transition. The virus plot is a tricky one to pull off, and the last thing we needed was a fourth straight episode full of people coughing and sweating. If I wanted to see that, I'd just look in a mirror on a Saturday morning! Instead, the episode pushed forward with the series' refocus on character, while still giving us the tough decisions and zombie killing we thirst for. And the more I think about it, the more I think this may've been the best episode of the season so far. It gave me feelings, man! CAROL I'M COMING FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!



NOTES

– Haha zombie who fell down the stairs. You made my day.

– Add "skineaters" to the list of The Walking Dead's pseudonyms for zombies. And put it right at the bottom as the stupidest.

– For the record, if I were Rick, I probably would have let Carol stay and kept the secret between the two of us, with the assurance that she'd consult me before killing anybody else. I think she's been with the group long enough to earn that second chance. Don't forget, Carol lost both a husband (who abused her) and a daughter in this mess; she's gone through more than Rick. Yet she's never hallucinated and answered phone calls from ghosts. 

– Maybe I'm an alcoholic, but I have no problem with someone wanting to get drunk during a zombie apocalypse, as long as it's within the confines of a secure camp. I'm still sad that all that beer and wine went to waste in the season premiere. R.I.P. crappy $4.99 bottle of wine and cases of a fake TV brewery's IPA. I would have run my tongue over every inch of you, just like a hobo.

– Those dumpy squatters who Carol and Rick ran into are another example of the little side stories that Season 4 is adding, and I really like them. These small self-contained tales give the series the comic-book feel that was missing in Season 3's heavily serialized, single-story run. The filthy Irish woman who Rick encountered in the premiere was another example of this. They may not be part of a story that links to the rest of the season, but they help build the universe in convincing ways, and to touch on relevant themes and philosophy. Besides, don't we want as many disposable side characters as we can get? Introduce them, sic some zombies on them, and move on to the next story. 

– Of course Lori fucked up pancakes and never bothered trying to fix the recipe. What else would you expect? She probably flipped her car 20 times on the way to get maple syrup. (But I still liked this anecdote a lot.)

– And here's something to think about: Carol said she had to lie about falling down the stairs to explain her injuries to ER, nurses instead of telling them the truth about her abusive husband. And then BAM! A female zombie fell down the stairs right at her feet and she stabbed it in the head, killing it... metaphorically killing THE OLD CAROL! Transformation complete!

– As someone who has dislocated his shoulders several times, the most uncomfortable scene I've ever seen on The Walking Dead was Carol resetting Sam's shoulder. Ugh. 

– In case you didn't hear, AMC has renewed The Walking Dead for a fifth season, with Scott Gimple staying on as showrunner. Hooray!


Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 4/3/2016

Season 6 : Episode 16

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Can't remember if its this episode or the previous one, but I was glad to hear Daryl calling Judith Lil'Asskicker again.
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Daryl is gonna be pissed!! I look forward to another road trip episode with Daryl trying to hunt down carol!
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Could Carol end up teaming up with The Governor? Not in a "get revenge on the prison" type of way, but in a "we're both out here completely fucked" kind of way? After-all, they both seem to have the same sort of mind-set - do what it takes to get it done, and neither of them sees themselves as bad people for what they've done.

I could see a scenario where Carol runs into The Governor, and at first things are tense, guns drawn etc. Then when Guv realises she's been kicked by the group, decides not to try to kill her, so they end up trying to survive together.
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If anything, think Carol and Rick are too similar for her not to clash with the Governor.
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Didn't get to see it until today...hence the late comment.

I didn't like Carol getting kicked out (the opening of this review was almost word-for-word my reaction), but I get it. I like Strong Carol...not so fond of Dark Carol.

Were we (my husband and I) the only ones who thought that Carol's comment about Rick's watch was a little nod to the zombie movie "Warm Bodies"? Or are we just weird?

Did everyone notice the gas price of 4.377 upside-down, spelling "Hell"? It brought back memories of when I was in high school, pulling out my Texas Instrument calculator and typing 0.7734.

Yeah, I'm used to all the blood and gore of zombie kills...but the shoulder part...I had to turn my head!

Michonne has a gorgeous smile. It was nice to see.

Great episode...great season thus far!
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5318008
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kevekev302: Grow up. That is something people I knew used to do...30 years ago. You're being neither original nor funny.
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I bet Rick will be honest with Daryl and explain she is the one who killed those people. I think Daryl will either accept that for the time being or go out to find her. Either way, it was the right decision by Rick.
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I LOVE that he kicked out Carol. Because he is so right in what he said. He didn't kill members of his own group in such a cold blooded way. He killed Shane for self protection. Carol killed decent people from her own group out of FEAR, weakness and cowardice! You know what they say about good intentions... What she did was not strong or tough, it was WEAK! To kill someone who's sick because they MIGHT infect you is not wise or strong at all. The "right" thing to do would have been to quarantine them, separate the sick from the healthy sooner. You don't go around killing people who might have lived, who might not have spread the infection at all, and certainly not without knowing it wouldn't just spread anyway - which it did!!! So her poor decision to kill them failed! It was all for nothing.

I love this ending because I like Carol. I do not want people to hate her or want her killed, which Tyreese rightfully would have wanted. I also don't want me to hate her, but what she did was so not OK and therefore I think this is the best solution. Now she at least gets SOME sort of punishment for what she did. I do want her to return later on in time, but I am glad she didn't get away with it so easily. It sends the right message. It was a perfect ending IMO.
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I think the most important part of the episode was Rick telling the story about Lori's awful pancakes, confirming again that she was and always will be the worst.
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Am I the only person who wondered if Carol killed the tattooed hippie?

I got distracted when watching so, I didnt see everything.
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Rick was with her the whole time so I seriously doubt it.

I'm not sure if her boyfriend died either.
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her boyfriend? i thought the person with tats was the boyfriend. so that wasn't the boyfriend's arm lying on the ground by the gate?
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That was her leg, it had a tattoo in it. The boyfriend's arm should've had Rick's watch and no tattoo.
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Wait when was this?
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Carol will definitely be back. And the sooner the better.
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She has to be back, it can't just end like this.
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i hope you are right........it is too sad and unfinished....
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I agree with this: Carol lost both a husband (who abused her) and a daughter in this mess; she's gone through more than Rick. Yet she's never hallucinated and answered phone calls from ghosts.
It was disloyal and a big betrayal to throw Carol out of the prison. It tok one day for Rick to forget all about his democracy, going Pinochet and without talking to anybody, he asked Carol to go. Why did she said yes and left? I don´t understand. She is so sure about what and why she did it that she should have stayed to argue for her case. Everyone in this zombie world has done something terrible, unspeakable, unforgivable, but they all move on. You just can not throw away one of the people that for such a long time has gone through so much with the rest. This ep did not make any sense for me, no sense at all. If somebody should go is Tyreese, because he is the one that is losing his mind and his actions are a danger for the rest.
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So you think it's OK to go around killing people just because everyone has done something terrible? It is not OK to lose your humanity and just get away with it simple as that. I too would not feel safe around Carol anymore if she could do that "for the good of the whole group". What if Carl had been the one that was sick first? Would she have killed him too out of fear for the rest of them? Would she kill him for the safety of others? That's what I wouldn't have trusted about her anymore, which is why Rick is so right...
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The three questions Rick had were:
How many walkers have you killed?
How many people have you killed?
Why?
Rick has killes on his own 5 people. Whatever reasons, friends, no friends,, part of the group, not in the group, whatever. There are 5 people he killed. Everybody has killed people for their and others safety. Carol is not exception. She is the norm: do whatever to protect yourself and yours. Whatever it takes.
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That is a selfish, weak and inhumane way of thinking! There is no excuse for what she did. Besides, she couldn't have known that in advance. She made a bad decision. Rick protected the group, Carol failed at it. Her intentions might have been good, but the decision was very, very wrong. The reasons are important. Carol killed for a wrong reason, Rick for the right.

It is actually disturbing that so many people here think it's OK to lose your humanity and go on a killing spree just because it's a zombie apocalypse. It's still not right to kill PEOPLE! Especially not your own. It's crazy for people to think that's OK.

It's about time people started caring again, so I am glad Rick is back!
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just stfu. Period
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You do realise this is a TV show? not real, I mean this is not the real world but actors been directed and edited in a story based (loosely) on the book series The Walking Dead. You write as this is real. It is just entertainment and fun to watch. Nothing else. You want morality and reality, then you are in the wrong TV show.
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Thank you exactly..and her kst being completely ok with it..and leaving the girls and driving off Luke she was going to the local Wal-Mart was ridiculous
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Yes, to me it was a ridiculous scene. It would have been a very good ep, though not among the best, if it had been some drama at that moment. The new Carol would have fight for her rights to do her own thing, for her people and would have opposed Dictator Rick. But yes, looks like she was in a hurry to do some shopping ;)
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Just got to see it last night on DVR and I thought it was an excellent episode. I thought it was almost surreal when Rick and Carol where driving to the sub-divison, seat-belted in a late model car. It almost looked like they were just out for a drive.
I don't know where the moment of judgment came for Rick when making his decision to exile her. It could have been when she lied to the young couple but I'm not certain. Carol was such an integral part of the group, more so than the other main actors that have been eliminated. And she also had something to bring to the table as far as keeping the group sustained and survivable. Rick's decision came across as almost a double standard and him stating that he had to kill Shane because Shane was going to kill him was somewhat self-centered since he was only trying to protect himself. Carol was doing what she thought would benefit the whole of the group however wrong (and it was wrong ). The shit will hit the fan when Darryl sees Rick returning w/out Carol. Can't wait to see how that plays out, I don't see him lying or for that, telling the truth, either.
Tyreese is getting a little draining on the nerves and maybe they should have just let him stay in the zombie embrace. How can you count on someone to cover your ass if they're suicidal?
Bob wanting to take a drink was fine by me but I think if that was all that was in his knapsack when playing tug-of-war with the zombies, that was a bit foolish. I'm sure there are other stores around with some 5 finger discount booze.
I really am enjoying that they are now having zombies back in the mix because last season made me forget that there were some scary beings out there that are ready to eat you at the first opportunity. Excellent episode!
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What I don't understand is that there are no ninja's in zombieland. It's clear to me that a Katana and a couple of Wakizashis get the job done. Just ask Michonne. Add a bit of Napalm for if you really want to speed up things.

Carol had to go, she was on the council, so she should have asked for permission first. Though as stated below, maybe it was Carl. I doubt that Daryl will be upset, there was no chemistry between them anyway. And when baby boy Tyreese dries his tears, he'll grow up to and get over it. Tyreese is not what I remember from the comics, he's a real whino and his overacting is just making his character unbelievable and annoying. Pity.

Ps. I'm no doctor, but when there is a flu virus, is it really the best solution to put them all in a confined space? Isn't it better to let them sleep ouside in the fields?


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Started buying the paperbacks of the walking dead awhile back (read up to volume16). And it´s f***ing awesome!! It differs so much from the tv-show. I wish they would make it more like the comic. It has actually started to annoy me that some characters that´s still alive in the comic is dead in the tv-show and vise versa. But hopefully they will follow the comic somewhat, cause there are really good stuff coming up. But I still wish the show would've been more like the comic. Because characters, relationships and deaths are way better in the comic. So if you´re only watching the show, start reading the comic. You won´t be disappointed! (I was gonna write some spoilers but didn´t wanna ruin the comic for anyone)
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I'm officially in bizzaro tv.com where TWD and Revolutions are examples of great story telling in contrast to Homeland and Sons of Anarchy which are both questionable at best. Are we REALLY here?

I like new badass Carol. Like, not love, because it's just way too much of a character departure for me to fully get behind. "You fight, and fight, you don't give up, and then one day... you change". Really TWD? That's your magic wand that makes this all okay? From mousey to near monster and explained all in a single sentence? Weak sauce. So weak that it doesn't matter how much I like the new Carol, I HATE how we got here and can't stop asking, "WTF?" any time she does or say anything seemingly so completely out of character.

But, as is the way of The Walking Dead, the episode you get the most information out of a character is their last episode. Usually that means zombie chow, but they shook it up for once and went with exile. It's unfortunate, but I'm far more apathetic about Carol never returning than I should be.

The second Rick handed his watch to that dude is the second his fate was sealed. Kinda like how the second he decided to follow crazy Irish lady was the second it became clear that was a BAD idea. Beth's boyfriend. These are nice little sub-plots. They'd be nicer if they weren't telegraphed from so far away.

As for the others, ignoring all the suspension of disbelief required to follow this little adventure they're on...and there's A LOT, I have one question. Why can these fools never exit a building the same way they came in? They walked past a room that had a handful of walkers in it. That's it. There was zero need for the huge detour that took them too the roof other than to artificially create some drama. I suppose it's better than the magically appearing zombie...but not much.

TWD is an entertaining show. It's popcorn, though instead of empty calories you fill up on more "What the...?!?" moments than anybody could possibly swallow. I don't think I'll ever get used to bizzaro critic acclaim it's getting around here.
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This was a really great character building episode! I think Rick made the right move, as much as I love Carol. Plus it was plain murder, Rick's inner policeman had to bring justice somehow and it was either exile or death by Tyresse's hammer. Am I the only one who want's Michonne and Daryl to hook up, they the 2 most bad ass people in the group and it felt like there's a little something whenever they have dialogue together. I also have a sneaky suspicion that Carol is gonna be the first to bump into the Governor!
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Then again, they weren't just sick: they were coughing blood until they rose up from the death to kill those they haven't already infected while they were coughing blood.

Rick reasons that Karen & David might have just get better, but the only two who got sick before them - Patrick and the sleepwalker that locked himself - died of it before the start bitting everyine in cell block D. This is a 100% mortality rate, even before the only Dr. got sick.
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They never made it clear JUST how sick those two were. If blood was streaming down their eyes or they were just????? Were they coughing up blood???

But hindsight is 20/20. The real problem perhaps was Carol increasingly making decisions by herself and not wanting others to know about it. A little paranoia perhaps???? Not trusting the others....I dunno...

But I hate to see any more of the original characters go....
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You can see the stages of the disease as Sasha walks inside quarantine:
  • first is her sweaty face (as she's trying to walk through the hall),
  • then its crumbling weakness (first cell to her left),
  • then its coughing blood (second cell she walks by),
  • then the zombie that tried to grab her (final cell), before she finds Dr. S.

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I wonder if Darryl's gonna kick Rick out for what he did to Carol?! Bad move Rick, I have no doubt who fans want to see more of if it came down to him vs Darryl!
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Who is Rick to banish anyone?? I will never forget that he is the reason why Sophia is dead--leaving Sophia under that mud bank instead of taking her back to the highway. Standing in that river bed(like a lame) for at least 2 minutes, explaining to her about how it's two of them(zombies) and only one of him.. when he could have grabbed her and gone back!

I really can't get with the over-dramatized acting of Tyreese.. what is with these writers? Rick went through the whole last season doing the same weirdness. And when Rick beat down Tyreese, a man enraged over the death of his woman.. well, that was really unbelievable. In the first place, Tyreese being that inflamed to punch Rick several times was unbelievable too; based on his personality and coolness from last season, he seemed more controlled than that. It's that over-exaggerated acting between Tyreese and Rick that still leads me to believe that Carl killed and burned those two people, and that Carol witnessed it and is protecting him because she was right there when they were fighting. Before the incident, Rick gave Carl back his gun and lesson on how we "protect our own". That gave him permission to return to the old Carl. The Carl that is overprotective and kills people, like the boy he killed in the woods.

Great episode by the way. Good character development with Bob and Daryl.
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I still don't understand why Rick wanted for Carol to acknowledge Sophia so badly, its like he was actually offended that she didn't mention her daughter was dead in front of two strangers.

Its not like he talks about his wife all the time, this must be the first episode I've seen Rick mention his life with Lori since she died, and Carol was no stranger.
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Daryl is so going to go out to look for Carol ... unless Rick told them she's dead. Either way, Daryl is going to go crazy. Is Rick a good liar? Daryl will probably see through it. Perhaps Tyreese will join him too, having heard her side of the story.
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EVERYTHING that happened in this episode was a step in the right direction. Best episode not just of this season, probably the best episode in a loooong time. This is the kind of show I want to watch. CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!
Every character had a story and a place (and great dialogue...finally!) in this episode. I don't think that's ever happened on this show before.
I just hope they keep this up because this is what the show should be.
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Does this mean there's no chance for CARYL?
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Depends on whether or not Rick keeps that watch.
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Didn't the guy in the pair they found also have the name "Buzzkills" for them or something?

Also, still amused that Daryl is out leading a group of three other black people, all things considered as to where that character started.

Also....why all this love for Tyrese? I think he's a little puss and I'm tired of his moaning and acting weird. I actually thought Bob also had the medicine in that back, so while I get how awful it is that he swiped another bottle of boose, I figured "his" medicine wasn't the only thing he was trying to salvage anyway. But yeah Tyrese behaving like a pissy idiot still isn't really helping the group survive, you know, like having temper tantrums in the middle of zombie fights and possibly getting everyone else killed? I get that he liked the lady that burned up, but it sounds like they only JUST got together. A valuable thing to lose in this world I guess, but still, Tyrese is a puss, not some awesome character to watch go "FIRE BAD! ZOMBIE HATE! LOSE GIRL SAD!" over and over.

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To be fair, its been over a day from their perspective and, aside Lizzy, the episode didn't show any of the sick people with Dr. S.

Judging only by Patrick, Tyreese's sister could be already dead.
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He seemed upset before that though, simply because his new girlfriend was dead, and again, I get that he's sad about that, but really, the guy has been lousy and unreliable this whole time, which yes is only a day, but I just am surprised people continue to put up with his emotional BS, he's endangering other peoples lives (only Rick is allowed to have emotional tantrums that do that, and even then characters have grown weary of it after a bit), and perhaps more importantly than that, is not providing me with any amusement :P .
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"Did you see the way he eyeballed that knapsack of knives when he was packing the Hyundai Tucson (with revolutionary new auto-cleaning feature)? I got the feeling that he knew from the start that shit was going to go down one way or the other."

Yeah... I thought there was a knife missing, you know, the one Carol ultimately used to kill those people? I think Rick was disturbed at potential reminders of what he had just confirmed in the previous episode (did you notice his rattled face in that long shot at the end?). Hence the Carol flashbacks as he was rumaging through the trunk?
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Didn't Carol lose her bowie knife in the previous episode when she was cornered by the walkers on the little jetty outside the prison? The knife was stuck in the walker's head and she couldn't pull it out in time before she had run for her life.
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Maybe so, but it was more a symbolic thing possibly.
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Ok, this was for me a Rick and Carol episode...the rest wasn't interesting at all for me...for a moment i thought, that he was going to kill her or something, but then they found those kids...
Carol been a badass pushed the shoulder back, just like that. Then she got the kids get killed...by letting them help them.
I couldn't believe the end. Carol is gone. Where is she going? When she finally became a badass thiss season...hope she will return orso..
I think if Daryl finds out, even if he knows that she killed those two and burned them, he will go search for her...
Loving this season...even you have your zombie moments, this is more focused on the people this time...I like
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Can somebody tell me why people think there has been a lot of character development...besides carol I don't see it..everyone else is the same and getting quite boring..I just think tyreses development was either too fast or unbelievable..one day he hates killing walkers on the fence seemed to be the most soft out the group ..now he is beating people up and gone bad sh*_ crazy or is it me it just seemed rushed
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I agree. I really found the Carol storyline the main interest in this episode. I also enjoyed the scenes with Michonne (sp?), but much of the time it feels like this season has presented characters either changed or so new that we don't even get to know them before they are killed.

With Carol they have eventually made us understand what is going on with her-but this season they just don't quite know how to let the characters naturally inform us what is happening-with the exception of Carol, and I like the scenes with Michhone.

I had not thought of Carol joining up with the Govenor until reading the idea here. Is Carol going to become as crazy and lethal as the Govenor??? Or at least be able to justify in her own mind joining with him?

That's quite a stretch from the original character, but if we had seen the Govenor before he went crazy, we might say the same about him.
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Just saying that the little kid killed those two and not Carol , i think
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They literally showed footage of Carol killing them and dragging them down the hall.
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Technically, that was Rick daydreaming about Carol while putting some knives in the trunk of his car.

Why is he daydreaming about Carol, or why did he had to do it while watching those knives is what led me to believe Rick considered killing her at some point of their run.
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Even if that was daydream(which was not),didn't Carol admit she killed them??
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Carol admitted it, Rick asked her outright and she said yes.
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It was Rick daydreaming of Carol, every flash came from his head as he gathers the gear and puts down those knives.

Notice its his perspective on how Carol would look like from a door frame or following her down the hall. I know Rick wasn't there, so these couldn't bememories. But it definitely came from his head.
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I see where Walking is headed, new strong Carol and the Gov will hook up because they both understand what it takes to lead. They will go to the prison and toss Rick out since he is not a strong enough leader to protect the group. Rick, Daryl, Michonne, and Carl will have to become travelers again and find some new territory for the new core group leading into season five.
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U might agree on the govener but maybe u forgot that he doesn't want to find a cure or anything...and he went over the top killing the military which is inexcusable in my opinion
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Carol isn't strong-she is unable to cope with her feelings, and so has shut them off. She may be able to protect herself and others in some ways, but then again, she is the one responsible for the death of the new couple we saw in this episode.

If being 'strong' means that instead of protecting the weak or vulnerable, you send them out to either prove their 'strength' or die, then what we are talking about is Nazi Germany. After all, they put anyone they considered 'weak' or 'vulerable' or 'defective', or 'inferior' into camps and killed them.

It's one thing to recognize that you don't have the ability to protect anymore new people, and let them know you just can't accept them into your group.

It's another to regard such as sort of 'useless weight'. I don't know if Carol has gone that far, but it is certainly implied in some of what she has been doing.

She is acting out of her traumas from her daughter dying because one of the children, the oldest girl, triggers all her feelings of guilt and rage at her loss. And some of that may be anger at her daughter herself, for having been so vulnerable that she could have been so easliy killed.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

In a way then, she and the Governor are not so different. Both driven by grief into actions that are destructive.
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What was the "rationalisation" for NOT going out of the hospital the way they went in, you know the one sans zombies?
Dippy hippy chick couldn't use her gun?
Proving once again, the walking dead in this series are the brain dead humans still alive/ smh!!
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I agree..I think that enough people don't hold the writers accountable it's like they write anything because they know they can..they survived 2 years but they got outside 5 min later and they die...don't get me started on the college it looked like thousands last week they make one turn and loose them until they try to make a dramatic scene
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Just gonna say it: Carol deserved it. She isn't God. You need to be tough to survive, but you can't be completely heartless.
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This is my reasoning too. There's a difference between defending your life and taking another's for your own convenience. Carol's whole half of the episode with Rick sounded like a desperate justification. She didn't make some noble sacrifice for the group. She took what looked like an easy route. It was an ego based decision that she hid from everyone because she knew she was completely in the wrong and there would be consequences. Rick has seen this behavior and is rightfully alarmed, and I think he's probably the most qualified to judge her on it given that he himself went down that road and almost nearly didn't come back. The other examples are Shane, the Governor and Carl. If he validates her choice to murder people who were defenseless and quarantined, she's not going to take that as a one-time thing. Who will she decide needs to be ended next? Someone whom she doesn't agree with on the council? Someone she decides is another threat based on a feeling?
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I would had done what she did, and when ricks son killed the boy putting down his gun by no means was that boy a threat to Carl when he's putting down the gun and yet he did nothing, I would had done exactly what carol done, just hope your never with me of this show becomes reality lol, she looked after the group not herself like Rick is doing protecting his son who to cold blooded murdered someone, I'm beyond over ricks decisions for the entire group, he spoke for hisself, not the group, maybe he should had put his son in the car with carol and sent the on there marry way and then I would be happy with ricks decision, but maybe I'm just judging since Carl is by far my least favorite character, I've wanted him dead since season two, I'd rather watch carol teach people to defend themselves then watch Carl walk around trying to be his father like its a police station lol, and part of me wonders if it was a council decision and she was who volunteer to do the dirty work, I mean we are talking about a show beginning government back by having a council lol
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I'm also not sure what other option there really was, in the long term, for Rick. It's actually a very fair fate - Rick didn't hurt her, he didn't hand her over to Tyreese. Taking her back to the prison and telling the others what she did would have ended with her death - or was he supposed to kill Tyreese or lock him away indefinitely or kick him out to protect Carol?
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Killing someone outside of the group who had just finished attacking you and would shoot you dead without hesitating is not the same as killing two members of your own group because they sneezed. Remember that they had trusted strangers in the past who betrayed them. They had already agreed to be quarantined, they may have survived, and if they really were spread by the pigs, killing them did nothing. A group like their cannot survive if an unknown person starts killing everyone who coughs or looks under the weather.
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The argument was "they didn't cough blood until they died".

Key word there died. They didn't cough blood until they died. They cough blood until Carol murdered them. Only two had died from the illness, at that point. I agree that no one has gotten well from this flu yet.

It was short-sighted of Carol to believe that nobody else would get ill. Given the fact that they are all living so close together. I realized that they would have to make a meds run, as soon as the illness started. Why didn't Carol? Was she planning on killing everyone who came down with it? Short-sighted as i said.

My main point was, that Rick was right about his actions. There are many reasons for this. One he saved Carol's life, because Tyreese would kill her. Another he could not trust her with his kids anymore. And that's the big one to me. Rick's number one priority, has to be the safety of his kids. They are not safe with her anymore. Carol proved that no one is safe, if she deemed them a threat. I haven't always agreed with Rick. He has made a lot of bonehead decisions. But i stand by him on this one. It was the best decision for everyone, including Carol.
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The argument was "they didn't cough blood until they died" when Patrick, the people Sasha saw on Dr.block, that guy that walked by Tyreese and Glenn were all coughing blood.

Just because Glenn and Sasha aren't dead yet, doesn't mean that's not how it was for sleepwalker-that-locked-hmself-in-q-cell and Patrick right before they died. They are not looking for meds for nothings: this kills. At a 100% mortality rate.

As of the latest episode, no one has survived this yet.
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Or the blood was on the pillow, from being stabbed in the head. But i'm not arguing, that they were not coughing blood. My argument is that it didn't kill them, Carol did.

Look i understand why Carol killed them, i really do, by it was the wrong move. They don't come back immediately. She should of waited until they died, then stabbed them. They were still alive, and with life there is always hope. At the time there were only four cases, we have no idea what the lethality rate is for the illness. "We don't kill the living." -Rick season one.

Rick had to be asking himself: what if Carl or Judy got it, would Carol had killed them? That is why he said he couldn't have her around his kids. As a father, and a very recent grandfather, i agree with Ricks decision. She crossed the line, it could have been one of his kids. She is willing to do whatever it takes to survive. She is very detached, that puts his children in danger. There still have to be rules, or no one will survive.
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The people at Dr. S block were already coughing blood by the time Sasha entered quarantine, so Karen & David must have been coughing blood by the time Carol ended it, if only because of the amount of blood on that pillow.

Much like the zombie that startled Sasha, anyone who has ever gotten sick of this has died, horribly. So, with or without Carol, Karen was as dead as Patrick and nothing could've changed that.
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@ionee24
But they didn't cough blood till they died. Carol murdered them. I get why she did it, but i don't agree with it. If she was that concerned with Karen, and whoever dying and coming back; she should of waited until they died, and then put a knife in their brains. But she didn't kill them, because they might turn, she killed them to stop the virus from spreading. Would she had done that to Glen? Rick was right, he could not trust her around his kids anymore.
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Im so tired of people acting like Carl really did wrong...the guy came to kill him and his family..This is a fact...u say the guy may have surrendered he didn't right away..and lets be serious even if he did..what could they have done with him let him go and say it's ok..come back a different time and try to murder us again..or do u people think they could have kept hi. Hostage for no reason no ransom,not enough food to give to a hostage..so please stop it with the Carl's a phyco stuff ..doesn't make any sense
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Then again, they weren't sneezing: they were coughing blood until they died, and then came back to eat those that weren't already infected because of the coughing.
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Carol was a fool.

She didn't know if those two were likely to die or likely to survive. (At the time, I think only one or two had died from the disease).

She didn't know anything about how the disease spreads. Is it enough to be near a sick person? Do you have to be near a sick pig? Do you have to get infected zombie blood in your mouth? So she couldn't know how likely it is that killing them would slow down or stop the spread of the disease. It could have made it worse, since she exposed herself to the disease and then went to hang out with the rest of the group.

She had to know that killing them would be bad for the group's morale. It could also have made people hide their symptoms until they aren't able to, and have already infected others.

She knew that it would seriously hurt Tyreese. She shouldn't kill Teen Wolf's mom unless she's prepared to also kill Tyreese, and then kill his sister*, and then kill anyone who might have taken a liking to her beetween seasons, and then continue to kill everyone who gets upset about the people she's killing.

*) I mean the pretty black woman from his original group. I'm just assuming that she's his sister.

Rick's decision makes sense, but it would have made more sense to discuss it with the others. What's he going to tell them now? That he kicked her out? That he politely asked her to leave? That she was bitten and then killed herself? He's probably not going to say that she died, so in the next few episodes, we can expect Daryl to go out looking for her.
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Problem is: the only two who died were the only two people who got sick. Judging by the zombies in Dr. S block, no one who has got it has survived so far.
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Yes, the appropriate thing for Rick to do, it would have been to tell the rest and decide together what to do. Just like it would have been for Carol. That's what I think. But Rick evaluated the possible results and in all of them Carol would be either dead or expelled from the group anyways, and with a lot more trouble, so he did it this way. Still, individual decisions lead to a chain of dramatic situations. Now it could very well be that Daryl, as you say, doesn't share Rick's decision and makes another dramatic individual choice of his own.
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I didn't like how carol left so easily I don't think it was at all realistic especially after they show how much she loves the girl...at the least she would have asked to be taken to the council...Its not like tyrese had too find out...and what was the point of the two hippies..they give us there life story then kills the 5 min later...I was hopping they would have is guess are they evil did the gov send them something...basically that whole seen with them was pointless
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Tim's sense of quality is slipping everywhere.

Clear was better in every possible way...just for clarification's sake.
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They both were wrong. Carol killed two helpless people.
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Rick was correct to kick Carol out of the group. He reasoned that she was probably killing everyone whom barely sneezed. Unless one got the zombie flu, there was no real reason to off them. If the prisoners knew someone was killing anyone whom showed any signs of illness, those people wouldn't likely want to reveal themselves. Most don't die from the flue much less from the common cold. Carol would be killing people whom have running noses. She certainly could no longer be trusted to actually be a net benefit to the group.

The episode dealt with this nicely. It delineated that Carol wasted very needed gasoline. That she was not only killing people but not even cleaning sheets. And that it seems she lost most of her humanity. Rick's job is to save the overall group. Carol was only focused on surviving.

___________

I reason that if Bob didn't have medical training that Daryl would have probably pushed him into the zombie pit.

Overall, it seems Daryl would probably be a better leader for the group. The people seem to like him, he seems to care about the people, he's a useful soldier, and he doesn't get bouts of crazy (unlike Rick).

Maggie and Glenn were missed.

__________

The strong survive. They don't take Hershel out on hunts. Carl went out with him probably mostly because Hershel -- because of his medical expertise -- is so important to the group.

Those two they met at the house seemed to have low IQs. One was crippled and therefore couldn't go on hunts. And the other would be used for what, exactly? If anything, it was a HUGE mistake to give them two guns and the watch.

Hershel is lucky he's so valuable in terms of his expertise, his connection to Glenn and Maggie, his leadership abilities, and his council.

__________

Rick didn't seem to consider Carol's importance to Daryl, but Daryl never actually seemed to want to date Carol anyway. And Daryl's probably the most eligible bachelor of the prison group.


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Herschel doesn't go out on runs because of his age and his prosthetic leg. He wanted to go with Daryl to the school, but Daryl told him they would have to be running.
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It seems you missed the point of what I was saying.
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No, I just pointed out that the reason Herschel doesn't go on runs is because of his age and his health, not because of his value to the group. Bob is a medic and he went on the run. (They didn't know about his drinking problem.) Carol works with the medical team in a medic's capacity, and she went on a run as well.
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I disagree. I think he would have been brought along because that is what people are supposed to do. They help each other.
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You continue to miss my point. Hershel is a cripple. If he wasn't as important to the group in the ways I detailed, he wouldn't be considered a valued member of the group.

If they first met Hershel 'on the road' and he didn't have medical experience and whatnot, Rick wouldn't likely risk trying to bring him back into the group.
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really this season of The Walking Dead has been an improvement over the last ones, but this episode kinda sucked, hey Tim for a guy who complains alot about homeland, you dont seem to awknowledge the problems on the walking dead, yeah real shocking that rick let Carol out in the open but she was like well ok cool, not complaining, nothing, and the worst part was when michonne, daryl, tyrese and the drunk guy getting out of the building, when they burst out of the window and all the danger, all of the sudden they just start talking and all, WTF
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Carol has pushed her feelings so far down that she couldn't beg Rick to let her go back.
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Not to mention, Rick looked ready to run after Carol when she gave him her first-year-wedding-anniversary's present as a goodbye gift. They were both struggling with this.

Neither one was cool with it.
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I HATE RICK. Seriously I am so sick of this guy and can't wait for him to die off. Imo he's the weakest character on the show and yet the main character. Kill him off and let the others move on already.
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Oh come on. He's weaker than that one chick who only ever looks after the baby (can't even be bothered to learn her name), the girl who sees walkers as pets, Old Carol, Hersehel, that other doctor dude, the alcoholic doctor dude, the crazy chick from Once Upon a Time etc?
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I hate rick to I think he's week to, he should had sent his son packing as well
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I'm team Carol. Personally, I think she did what was necessary and what she KNEW Rick couldn't and wouldn't do! Rick is too confused to be the leader of a group of people struggling to survive in an apocalyptic world of zombies. If Rick was half the leader he should be, perhaps Carol wouldn't have felt it necessary to do what she did. Someone has to make the tough decisions. And Carol did what needed to be done. Rick abandoning Carol wasn't a tough decision; it was a bad decision by a confused man who has become legendary for making confused and bad decisions! I miss Shane!!!!
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Yeah, I think Shane kind of got a bad rap.
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I liked Shane. But when he killed Randall, to lore Rick into the woods to kill him, he signed his own death warrant. I agreed with most of Shane's other views, but i wasn't crazy about the way he went about it. And he was like: "Hey we beat each other half to death, did you think we could kiss and make-up?" I was like, he could have left you on the bus, but he came back for you a$$hole. He's your best friend, your partner, like a brother, and you're going to kill him over a woman?
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Yes, I know he did all that, but before any of that happened, some of the group began talking about him like he was as big a problem as the walkers. When Andrea took up with him, Lori was like
Eeew, you like Shane, rather than just keeping her mouth shut. She was trying to push him out of the group before he became the problem he eventually was. I think he just became the monster they wanted him to be, without any logical reasoning. Remember, he was the original leader. He went back for Rick, the man he loved like a brother, and he took care of Lori, Carl, and the rest of the group. He was competent and logical, and most of all, right about Sophia. There was no real need for the writers to suddenly make him the bad guy. That's what I mean by a bad rap.
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A bad rap? He wanted to kill Rick, and not because he thought Rick couldn't make the tough decisions, but because he wanted Rick's wife. That's just an asshole. Rick and Shane had their differences on how to lead the group, but Shane turned into an attempted murderer because he went off the deep end where Lori was concerned. Zombie apocalypse or not......stay away from other dude's wives, especially when said wife has made it clear she doesn't want you. MOST especially when said wife is LORI of all people. That's the biggest strike against Shane. Who in their right mind would want Lori?
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I agree that Shane turned a bit maniacal towards the end, and definitely should have avoided Lori once she made it clear that she wanted to resume her relationship with Rick, but what I admired about him was when a decision needed to be made, or an action needed to be taken, Shane didn't hesitate. I think Rick thinks too much and acts too little. And then he's always "haunted" by the decisions he finally makes. In a world of governing bodies, laws, and juries Rick would be the idea peacemaker. But, in a world in which there are no laws, people are in survivor mode 24-7, and zombies walk the earth freely, I'll choose to follow the guy who doesn't appear to fall apart after every other event.
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Totally I mean how much longer would they have spent still looking for Sofia if it wasn't for Shane...and too me if he would have not thought too actually believe the govener merel would still be alive
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Here's my prediction, Carol will find Morgan and together help out the people at the prison somehow
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Either him or the Morales (we haven't seen them since season 1, I refuse to believe they died after Jim).
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This show is the biggest, most overrated piece of shit I've ever seen on television. A shame really
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Maybe you would be happier, watching Resident Evil and 28 Days Later movies. Stories with a lot of action, but little character development. TV is not the movies. They have to fill a season, not just two hours.
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Don't see it and don't comment and you'll be happy. No need to torture yourself!
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Oh, man, I didn't know the Governor was coming back. Thanks for the spoiler.

I don't agree Carol has been through more than Rick. It's not just a question of comparing the number family members they've lost. This is not math. Rick was a leader who made very tough and sometimes very wrong decisions. He had to bear it all for the sake of the group (like Carol was now trying to do, Shane-style).
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You can't have a drink in a zombie apocalypse..what is the world coming too when a redneck gets all uppity and bans ufrom ddrinking..
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I don't drink, but I think a zombie apocalypse would be a great time to start.
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I don't think Daryl got upset because he had taken the alcohol, even though Bob's confession earlier probably didn't help. He got upset because he put Tyreese's life on the line by refusing to let go of that bag for some stupid booze. Not cool, Bob, not cool.

And then, when Daryl goes to chunk the bottle in justifiable anger at Bob's stupid reaction, Bob reached for his gun. Yeah, in my opinion, Daryl's threat to beat his ass into the ground was totally justified. And awesome. Did I mention awesome? It was awesome.
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Yeah, Daryl was intimidating me, and I was sitting in my living room.
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I was surprised to find myself in the minority with the Carol vote but accept my place. Killing two people because she decided it was right then being indifferent about it is too far. Glad Rick addressed it head on. Feel for ol' Daryl though coz he'll miss her.
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It's funny that one can get to accept the vote of a majority about Carol killing two people without any vote from any majority...
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The only one I don't like is Tyreese (spelling?) I don't know if it's bad acting, bad direction or something else...I just don't care for him at all. Nada.
Bring Carol back...I hope she's going to return. I haven't read the books.
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Bad direction so far, I really hope they have him planned out because he's one of the best characters in the books.
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I feel this is still the same Tyreese, problem is Daryl is already on the same role as he was supposed to be.
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It's funny how if you critisize a show or express disappointment some people want you to stop talking about it. I can only guess that it is uncomfortable for them to hear, and don't like anyone expressing such opinions.

But I understand that. When a show I particularly like is critisized I may feel the same way. But really, how can you discuss anything if only certain points of view are acceptable? If anyone who disagrees is told to simply 'stop watching'???

The true message, of course, is to stop making comments.

That is not a discussion of the points being made, nor of anyone's personal emotional reactions. Everyone should be free to express how they feel within the guidelines of the forum, at least, that's what I think.

And why can't different people have different reactions?

I have a lot of feelings of disappointment with season 4 of Walking Dead. I also felt reconnected on some level to the storyline with Carol, that was an emotional thing for me.

Who has the right to tell anyone else what they should watch, or not watch, and why should anyone have to justify any of this, one way or another, to someone else.

Anyway, those are my feelings about it. Feel free to disagree :)
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Criticize away. The ones getting the flak are the ones who say the whole show is stupid and the people who like it are only pretending to because the critics like it. Be specific in your complaints and keep them about the show, not about those who like the show and you'll be okay.
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I feel there's a significant difference between a valid criticism I could make, from either Rick's choice or Bob's alcoholism to something as shallow as Michonne's smile, and taking the temperature of a discussion in order to challenge already established opinions.

The former is my own opinion, the latter just means I've read everyone else's.
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Never mind all the plot developments, as a UK -based watcher of TWD I have to note a much more disturbing trope- namely the persistence of the characters in driving vehicles without using the seat belts clearly provided. In an admittedly, pre-apocalyptic UK , the legal requirement to use seat belts has resulted in a significant decrease in the prevalence of vehicle related deaths and injury. One wonders indeed if the whole unfortunate post-apocalyptic scenario in the US might have been avoided if, the protagonists had, to use the American terminology, "buckled up". Its not too late surely, safe driving procedures might yet result in the American segment of humanity surviving unexpected contact with walkers. Including the bloke with the hat whose actually English and was in that thing ages ago about gay blokes in Manchester...
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Good point, but I suspect not strapping yourself in place to be a zombie snack saves more lives in a zombie apocalypse. Every second counts.
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Another great episode. What an awesome start to the 4th season so far.
ps: you missed to mention the most important part of the episode ... Michonne cracked a joke and smiled a HUGE smile. That was amazing :)
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Props to Melissa McBride. Carol has gone from three seasons of useless to one of the best characters on TV this season. Girl better come home. #TeamCarol
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This was for me a great episode. A great moral dilemma being discussed between two of the older characters, that means stakes!

I don't know what I would have done if I was Rick, but I take note, people!!! When the apocalypse arrives, if you are in my group and you sneeze, you are done. I'll learn to use the knives as Carol and kill you nicely, and burn you afterwards, you can count on me. It is for the sake of the group, and I don't need to discuss it with anyone, right? And now I have your blessing, so thank you for that!!! Muahahahaha!!!
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In a true apocalypse all nuclear plants would explode - over 70 of them in the US - due to overheating when electricity is gone. After about 250 years the land is livable again.
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You don't have to worry about me. In a zombie apocalypse I plan to salt and pepper myself before covering my body with ketchup, and just get it over with.
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to be honest, I don't know if I would make it to the salt and pepper myself!
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There is no "Indifference" !!! This is the dumbest block buster series by a landslide !!!
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Iy is really an over rated piec of crap. An insult to our intelligence.
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Exceptional episode with in depth character development, I feel so bad that Carol is banished from the camp considering the way she stepped up this season as a leader helping the kids and been a total bad ass all round. Rick tried to give her reason to be remorseful to redeem herself but her nonchalant attitude was the main reason he chose to get rid of her in the end.
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I don't feel Rick was trying to give her a reason, but rather he had grown so accustomed to Shane's, Lori's and Merle's lies that he was almost scanning for dishonesty

...he almost seemed surprised that he didn't find any.
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Could Carol being kicked out be the premise for the spin off I've read they plan on? Might be a dumb idea if it's already been revealed just what the spin off will be.
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