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The Walking Dead S04E08: "Too Far Gone"

You know, for an episode that featured a tank shooting up the prison, the deaths of a handful of main characters, and the showdown between the Governor and Rick that we've all been waiting for since the Season 3 finale ripped us off by skipping, "Too Far Gone" wasn't really that great. Relative to the last two episodes—which dragged on for what seemed like four—the first two thirds of The Walking Dead's mid-season finale were more of the same: The Governor was acting all sweet and like he cared about the best interests of the group, when we all knew that he was a dick. The big hoedown at the end was fun to watch, but it was preposterous, even for a show about walking corpses eating the living. It was a sloppy hour that wrapped up plots by kicking them in the groin and pushing them off this runaway train of a show, but hey, that's The Walking Dead, television's okayest series that we all want to be great (but that probably never will be). And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. Just kill some zombies and some characters I like, and I'll put up with a lot.

But at some point I'll probably get tired of the same old, same old,  and *gasp* maybe I'll begin to start the process of thinking about maybe pondering the idea of possibly quitting the series. Me? Not watching a zombie show? The idea of that happening seems crazytownbananapants. But the last three episodes of this first half of Season 4 actually have me thinking like that, and what should have been a fun mid-season finale saw plentiful stupidity outweigh the less-frequent awesomeness. The biggest problem I had with it was all the hair I pulled out of my head during the many "Whyyyyyy????" moments that got in the way of brainless amusement. Among them:

  • Why did everyone from Camp Martinez have no problem with the Governor telling them what to do after getting their panties all the way up their butts when Pete said he was going to take over? This is residual from last week, but it made me all the more crazy when these dopes just agreed to attack a prison without asking even one question. "Yeah sure, let's go take over this prison because our new leader said so. You know, the new leader with the evil eyepatch who just showed up a few days ago right before our other leaders mysteriously died."
  • Why do all the parents in this show WANT their kids to die? Who (Lilly) lets their child (Meghan) play unsupervised on zombie-infested land while all the people who normally protect the perimeter are off attacking a prison? Couldn't Lilly have watched the river for zombies AND kept an eye on her daughter at the same time? Maybe tell Meghan to play near the lookout point instead of a hundred yards behind Lilly? And why did the zombie that bit Meghan decide to pop up right then? Did that sign keep it from digging through the dirt?

  • Why did Lilly show up in the middle of a gunfight with dead Meghan in her arms? And did she carry Meghan's body all the way through the woods to the prison? And why didn't Meghan turn during the long walk there?
  • Why can anyone land a headshot on a zombie with one bullet in the middle of chaos, but when it comes to shooting another human—even one who's retreating with no cover around him (like Rick)—all of a sudden everyone has the aim of a drunken toddler?

  • Why did a bullet go right through Bob as if he was made out of tissue, but then Daryl held a zombie carcass up as a human shield and suddenly it was like Kevlar? Last week, Tara grabbed a zombie's ankle and it peeled away like the skin of a wet grape. This week, zombies were bulletproof.
  • Why did the tank shoot holes in everything if the prison was so important?
  • Why didn't Rick shoot the Governor instead of punching him in the side of the face?

  • Why didn't Michonne kill the Governor? Seriously, WHY? You said you were going to, Michonne. Now you're just a windbag of empty promises. And why would the writers choose Lilly as the one to kill the Governor? Did they sit around and wonder, "What is the least satisfying way we can kill this dude off?"
  • Why didn't The Walking Dead just kill the Governor in Season 3 if this was how he was ultimately going to meet his end? Why did we have to sit through the last two episodes if all the Governor was going to do was meet a new chick and rally some randoms to fuck up the prison?
  • Why is AMC doing some stupid #FanRomance campaign and what was with that lame commercial about that guy who proposed to his girlfriend at a zombie-themed party? 

But let's back up to that last WHY, the one just before the #FanRomance one. When Rick told the Governor that he wasn't giving up the prison and they would fight it out if the Governor turned down Rick's request to be roommates, it was exactly what the Governor wanted to hear. I don't even know if he wanted the prison at all, he just wanted to ruin Rick's day and kill a bunch of people, even if it meant he would fail. What a jerk! 

"Too Far Gone" was Season 4's chance to reveal the meaning of its two Governor-centric episodes, and it failed to use any of the foundation it spent two hours laying. The Meghan thing didn't matter, the Lilly thing didn't matter, the Governor supposedly changing after losing everything didn't matter. In the end, what we always thought about the Governor was correct, and the detour about him embracing a new start and becoming Brian Hariot was a confusing and meaningless diversion. If The Walking Dead's writers had used the Governor as the insane villain we always knew he was instead of making him into a family man with a soft spot for little girls who also happens to be a power-hungry maniac who kills off great guest-stars, these last three episodes would have been a lot more fun. Instead, we got to see him have sex in the back of a truck and make chess metaphors. I just wanted him to die and get off this show. There was no point in keeping him around, and his death should have been a moment for all of us to high-five, but instead it just sorta happened.


But for all the narrative faceplants, "Too Far Gone" did have those "AHHHHHHHHHHHZOMG" moments that are still worth talking about. Deaths! We already discussed the Governor's overdue demise, and now let's never speak of it again. And Meghan was only a plot device that the writers didn't even fully use, so we can skip her, too. But Hershel! They killed Hershel! The old man had enough moxie to crawl away with half his neck severed in his final moments... and then the Governor went Theon Greyjoy on him and took several hacks to take his head completely off. The Walking Dead has never been one for ceremonious send-offs, and this will go down as Exhibit A for that. Just a few weeks ago, Hershel gave us one of the show's best episodic performances in "Internment," and his payment for that was a death completely out of his control. It's like Scott Wilson's face was the one that got pierced on the writers' room dartboard full of cast members as they decided which character would be this episode's big exit. It's The Walking Dead's prerogative how it wants to handle character deaths, and right now the show's approach appears to be "RANDOMLY," in big bright lights. In a way it makes sense, because of this crazy world the survivors live in. People would totally suddenly drop dead or get their heads cut off by eye-patched lunatics in a zombie apocalypse. But with a TV series that we tune in for each week, it's drama for shock value and nothing else. 


And Judith! Little Ass Kicker got her ass kicked! Or did she? That bloody car seat certainly wanted us to believe that Rick's daughter became a zombie delicacy (mmmm... baby flesh), but I'm following Habeus Corpus rules here and saying no body means no death. The Walking Dead doesn't seem like a show that would say, "Whoa whoa whoa! We're not showing a dead baby, that's just too far." In fact, I'd bet they'd jump at the chance. If it can show Rick shooting zombie Sophia in the face and a zombie gnawing on Meghan's shoulder, it can show a severed baby leg in a bloody baby shoe. Tyreese probably picked her up or something. The Walking Dead wouldn't deny us the pleasure of seeing a zombie use a baby femur as a toothpick, would it?

"Too Far Gone" was entertaining mop-up duty with a fun and frustrating finish, but SURPRISE it wasn't top-tier television. Maybe that's the destiny of The Walking Dead. Maybe the show won't ever reach the heights it occasionally flirts with. As long as it has zombies, gore, and deaths, I'm going to watch it. But this back-and-forth game of "Is this the season where The Walking Dead gets its shit together?" is a game I think we should all stop playing. Some of you reached that point a long time ago, but I'm a sucker, and the strong start to Season 4 pulled me back in again. Now? I may just start fast-forwarding to the parts with spraying blood. Oh who am I kidding, it will pull me back in again, I know it. Damn you, show!



NOTES

– I think the most nervous I was during this whole episode was watching those kids carry Judith in that car seat. She wouldn't have survived the trip to the bus the way the little'uns were flopping her around. That was Shaken Baby Syndrome waiting to happen!

– Hello, Lizzie! She rounded up her posse of short-stacks and they became the toddler cavalry and saved Tyreese's life. That was some pretty accurate shooting for a bunch of kids who just a few days ago were learning how to use a knife. I still hate you, Lizzie. 

– Daryl was his usual great self, and his grenade slam-dunk into the turret of a tank was awesome. And even though I complained about a zombie being an effective human shield, that move was fantastic in a cartoonish way.

– A couple things put off a little longer than they should've been this season: the rest of the group learning about Carol, and the culprit responsible for feeding rats to zombies and making freaky animal dissection displays in The Tombs.

– Don't worry, David Morrissey (who played the Governor) already has another pilot at AMC lined up.


Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 4/3/2016

Season 6 : Episode 16

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how can i watch this episode?
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All video links are posted in the WATCH ONLINE section of each episode page. For example: http://www.tv.com/shows/the-walking-dead/too-far-gone-2985386/
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Apparently, you have many questions of why. I would like to point the ff:
  • You're right when you said that Lilly should have stayed with her daughter while she plays, because starring at a walker crossing a river is more important to her.
  • When Lilly was rushing to her daughter, she could have shot the walker right in the face. Instead, she waited until she get there and boom. I really believe that Lilly has turtle reflexes.
  • Meghan could HAVE turned while they went to the prison. But it didn't happened. Remember why? Because Dr. Jenner said, (accdg to their first studies) that they can turn at least after 3 minutes or as long as 8 hours.
  • The walker buried in the mud wasn't a mistake, we don't know how many people died there before the apocalypse. it quite cool because walking dead have included the typical zombie scenario which is the dead will rose from the ground kind of thing.
  • It's just right when Daryl made the walker a human/zombie shield, I've seen tons of movies doing that so we shouldn't make a big thing out of it. And at the season 3 when the Governor attacked the prison for the first time, one of Governor's people shot Oscar in the head while Carol is lying right at his back for protection.
  • I only thought of one thing through out the episode: the people in the prison who are just waiting something to happen with the Governor and Rick was a wrong move. The mere fact that Hershel and Michonne were right right kneeling before Rick, it is a fucking that "Hey guys do you mind to scatter, go the woods and attack the Governor and his people at the back so nothing can happen to us and that this son of a bitch will finally die?" Nooope, that didn't happen. Let's assume that the Governor posted a bunch of people in the woods just in case the prison people will do that, they could kill em all in a minute. Pssh, if that only crossed the minds of the writers/producers/director, it should have been great in a diff way.
But over all the episode was e tear-jerker, the fall of Rick and Carl when they saw Judith gone, one of the best.
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"we don't know how many people died there before the apocalypse. it quite cool because walking dead have included the typical zombie scenario which is the dead will rose from the ground kind of thing."

Err, no. We haven't seen any old corpses rising from their graves. Neither would it make any sense since those who died before obviously weren't infected.
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WTF this review? It's like we watched two different shows. Stop reviewing this show, Tim. And people comparing TWD to Alias? I guess that would explain the quality of most TV shows these days, if they are targetting people who think like that. WTF!
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late to the party here, but I just marathoned the last 4 episodes and had to comment. Not wanting to read 927 comments, forgive me if anyone is still reading them and I state the same thoughts.

Why did Rick sound like he was going to cry while talking to the Governor?

Why didn't he sow any seeds of doubt among the Governor's new posse by telling them what he's done in the past?

Why did Rick, an experienced sheriff's deputy and survivor get his ass kicked so easily???

Episodes like this are great to watch, but the point Surette noted do sink in and bug you. The Governor being shot by Lilly made little sense, but showing more of her realization of what a monster he truly was may have helped that scene better. In case no one pointed it out though, she drove in the car behind her you have pictured. A cool end to the Governor, aside from Michonne, might have been a scene where Meghan, having been turned by the zombie (any zombie actually) kills the Governor in some surprising way. Maybe he survives the prison fight and goes back for her and Lilly, which, of course, would mean some total rewrite, but still would have been better justice.
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Man... Herschel.. Why... this show depresses the heck out of me.
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I think it was an awesome episode but I do have to agree that I don't feel with this show what I did say watching something like Battlestar Galactica, 24, Alias or even Lost. All of those shows pulled me in every week and there was only a few duds here and there (exception of Alias cause I mean come on Seasons 4 and 5 blew) but they all had great consistency unlike the Walking Dead which can be awesome for a few episodes only to then derail with the likes of 'Live Bait' and 'Dead Weight'. I own three of the four the shows I mentioned and watch religiously cause of how freaking good they were but I can't say the same for Walking Dead.
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I was dreading a rehashed rerun of the Tombs episode from the previous season and boy was I glad to be wrong. An attack was promised and actually delivered on. I think that Michonne did not kill the Governor because she gave him a fate worse than, dying and coming back as a walker and then she gets to kill him all over again.

The Governor, in my opinion (and I havent read the novels), seemed to only want to eff up the group and piss off Rick because if he really wanted the prison he could have gone in without blowing the crap out of it. I thought for one minute was a gonner but there is still time after the beating he took.

What next now they are all scattered and separated? Do they have some where to meet up or is this just a way for the writers to get rid of characters and make space for new ones without any blood shed?? Will Carol be back or will it turn out to be the lamest end to a character who was finally coming into her own??

As for the kids, who knew they would turn out to be able to shoot better than the adults?? I hope the baby isn't dead, maybe some one else picked her up on the way out of the prison. The problem with mid season breaks is we have too long to wait to find out.
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The kids didn't shock me because Carol had been teaching them how to handle several weapons, if the knew how to use knives they sure must have known how to use handguns.

Just because Carl was the only kid we've seen with a weapon doesn't mean he was the only kid in the prision that knew how to handle them.
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So I decided that I would read one of Tim's reviews for the first time in a long time, because I thought, after an episode like that, no way Tim can be a dick about it. But first paragraph in, yup Tim is still a dick. I am not even going further. You are hands down the dumbest person on this site Tim. They keep you employed because you know how to stir the pot and piss people off, and that's about it.
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Here is my counterpoint to Tim's review.....

ShawnG6's Post
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Now I'm thinking Michonne rescued Judith from the bloody car seat because her arms must have been covered in The Governor's blood after she killed him.

Its strange she didn't go back for Carl or Rick afterwards, so I figured she rescued Little Ass kicker and they are hiding together somewhere safe.
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That looks like too much blood someone would leave behind by just picking up a baby out of a car seat. But anything is possible in TWD world.
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Good point, the stain would fit the amount of blood left by Bob's gun shot shot wound rather than the amount of blood left in Michonne's arm.
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She didn't kill Gov. She did one better: mortally wounded him, and left him to bleed out...then turn. That's both cold and cool.
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Okay, you couldn't be more wrong about this episode.

Tim, you may not be the appropriate person to review this show. You do realize you're in the FOURTH YEAR of a zombie movie, right? Zombies are not complex; trying to maintain a show on the premise of "OMGGG MOAR ZOMBIE KILLZ PLZ THX BYE" like you seem to insist be done in each episode is myopic. Too many of your reviews yearn for more zombie gore. Perhaps you should watch more WWE RAW.

  • "Why did everyone from Camp Martinez have no problem with the Governor telling them what to do after getting their panties all the way up their butts when Pete said he was going to take over? This is residual from last week, but it made me all the more crazy when these dopes just agreed to attack a prison without asking even one question."
Martinez was eaten after irresponsibly stumbling drunkenly into the zombie pit. Essentially he died of mishap. Relative Fear Level: Low. There was much rabble rousing and concern for peoples' democratic rights in the group, but probably not many potential leaders.

Then "Alamo" Pete dies going on a supply run. Pete was a great guy; everybody loved him! (And "Everybody loves a rallying pointerrrrrrrr.... hero.") He didn't die of irresponsible happenstance; he was slaughtered. Everyone is reminded how serious the zombie threat is. Relative Fear Level: High. That makes for a scared, malleable populace.

But first, One Eye Bri smartly makes sure to neuter the only other "real" leadership option in the group, Tank Guy. Now everybody is listening to the one remaining strong voice, the Governor's. His speech to them talking of the certain death at the hands of terroristerrrrr....... WMDerrrrrrr....... zombies unless they go to war plays on their fears and that's why they agree. Plus, he promises that it can really all be accomplished with no boots on the grounderrrrrrrrrr...... no shots needing be fired. (You must admit, the process works. The only thing that was missing was a "Mission Accomplished" banner flying from the top of the tank.)

  • "Why can anyone land a headshot on a zombie with one bullet in the middle of chaos, but when it comes to shooting another human... everyone has the aim of a drunken toddler?"
Because the zombies shuffle directly at you at 1mph. Humans are zigging, zagging, and duck-and-covering.

  • "Why did the tank shoot holes in everything if the prison was so important?"
Mob mentality had taken over by that point. And if that wasn't enough, realize you have an army tank gunner, in a tank, in battle, thinking like -- an army tank gunner in battle.

  • "Why didn't Michonne kill the Governor?
She left him to get eaten by zombies and/or turned into a zombie. A death much worse, especially to the Governor, than simply lopping off his head.

  • "And why would the writers choose Lilly as the one to kill the Governor? Did they sit around and wonder, "What is the least satisfying way we can kill this dude off?""
Probably because he came into her life, gave her hope, then totally annihilated all that she had. And she probably hated him for it, but hated herself more for being complicit in it. So she gets the "BOOM headshot" moment. (Unless of course he talks himself out of it right before she pulls the trigger because, you know, chicks.)

  • "Why is AMC doing some stupid #FanRomance campaign and what was with that lame commercial about that guy who proposed to his girlfriend at a zombie-themed party?"
See my previous comment: "because, you know, chicks." AMC would probably like some watching their little TV show because, you know, advertising demographics.

  • ""Too Far Gone" was Season 4's chance to reveal the meaning of its two Governor-centric episodes, and it failed to use any of the foundation it spent two hours laying."
The foundation they laid had you thinking that, just maybe, Rick's words would have an affect on the Governor. That maybe the next season and a half would be filled with drama caused from these two people having to live together, vieying for control of the group. That the empassioned speech would somehow win over the Governor, and his flock, and that maybe the flock wouldn't blindly follow into war simply driven by their base fears. That maybe, there could be civilization, and humanity, in the face of this zombie apocalypse......

And that all gets torn away when the Governor says, simply, "liar." Those two hours put hope into your heart that there can be better..... only to have that ripped from you, and catastrophe follows. It's a much better way of setting up the next season and a half. They needed to blow up this prison safe haven they had managed to create, so that the show can go of into new directions.

  • "If The Walking Dead's writers had used the Governor as the insane villain we always knew he was instead of making him into a family man with a soft spot for little girls who also happens to be a power-hungry maniac who kills off great guest-stars, these last three episodes would have been a lot more fun."
"The insane villain we always knew he was" Do you want a simpler, straightforward show with nothing more than zombie kills and good-guy-vs-bad-guy shootouts?

If you see characters in such black and white, unchangeable terms, then you really close yourself off to possibilities of where characters can go. As you yourself admitted in a previous review, you like that they're building out the secondary characters. That's the only way they're going to find further success with the show. They can't lock characters into easily dismissed typecasts like "Insane Villain Guy" or "Was Abused By Her Husband Girl" or "Old Limping Guy."

"Power-hungry maniac who kills off great guest-stars" Uhm.................... that's why they're guest stars.

  • "And Judith! Little Ass Kicker got her ass kicked! Or did she? That bloody car seat certainly wanted us to believe that Rick's daughter became a zombie delicacy (mmmm... baby flesh), but I'm following Habeus Corpus rules here and saying no body means no death."
Naw, that bitch had to die. She was the most dangley of dangling plot devices and at least her death had an emotional charge to it. That bloody car seat, after all the chaos and agony and ripping away of hope, was a summary image that gave her entire existence purpose.

I really don't think Tim the Reviewer has an appreciation for the subtlety that the show has introduced in this fourth season. Subtlety is a key ingredient that should keep the show more entertaining in the long run. I don't see myself of anyone else continuing to tune into this show over and over just for more zombie gore. "As long as it has zombies, gore, and deaths, I'm going to watch it." Indeed.
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"Why did everyone from Camp Martinez have no problem with the Governor telling them what to do after getting their panties all the way up their butts when Pete said he was going to take over?"

Because the Governor is a great orator, and we should always assume there is uncovered TIME between the events shown on-screen (time in between the scenes is time really happening for the characters). This time could have been used by governor to convince people of his capabilities.''

"Why did the tank shoot holes in everything if the prison was so important?"

Obviously the prison was NOT that important. Taking the prison was supposed to be justified by the governer wanting safety for the people he cared about. But didn't we see in the end just how LITTLE he cared about anyone? So why would the prison still be the main issue? Obviously, beating Rick was the most important; getting his way was the most important; being the uncontested king was the most important. See: his slaughter of his town people in last season's episode. His RULE was most important to him, and Rick's speech was about to destroy it because it was starting to convince everyone. But how do you rally people behind you? You start a war.
And the tank commander was just a mini-governor. He too was obviously just a would-be-despot using justifications for violence.

"Why didn't Michonne kill the Governor?"

As far as she was concerned, she did. She just wanted him to suffer from his wound before he died, maybe even leave him for the walkers to chew on.

"And why would the writers choose Lilly as the one to kill the Governor?"

I expected her to be the one the moment she realized he wasn't as good a guy he pretended to be. It could actually be a criticism that Lilly being the one to kill the governor was predicable. Another criticism: why show Hershel getting his noggin chopped off, but shying away from seeing the governor getting a bullet in the brain? Either that is lame, or they somehow still have him come back in the future because Lilly didn't kill him after all.

For the other points, i cheer ShawnG6 for delivering a good rebuttal.
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Wow! I could have written most of what you said, we agree that closely! There are a few things I'm going to disagree with. First, I'm a chick who LOVES the show on its own merit; I don't even know what the frack that ad mentioned is! I'm totally lost on #fanromance...not a clue. Another was Judith. I saw huge possibilities with Ass-Kicker's storylines. I'm hoping that she was rescued.

I'll also add that I think there was a possibility that Rick COULD have talked the crowd in going against Gov...until Tank-Guy opened his big mouth. I can't explain it...it's just how I feel
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Unless Little Ass-Kicker's blood turned out to be the antidote to the zombie disease, or they jump ahead 25 years to show her as a real Kick-ass Zombie Hunter (a la The Terminator's John Connor) I don't see what else they could do with the baby except have Beth sing to her every episode.

I agree with your point about Tank Guy opening his mouth though. That second, commanding voice reinforcing the Governor's eliminated any reasonable second thoughts the people in their group might have had.
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haha guess Carol taught those little girls well! and can't believe Michonne didn't finish the Governor off. As for Lil' Asskicker I don't think she's dead. Also RIP Hershel!
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I you ask me, Michonne did for Andrea: she left the Governor to turn, knowing how it would happen just like he did with Milton when Andrea died.

Lily saved him from it.
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I take the oppisite view as the reviewer-during season 4 the episodes I truly liked and felt were up to TWD quality of previous seasons were the last three of the season.

UP until then, there were moments or certain events that were engaging-but much of it seemed pointless, since we did not know the new characters (well who had a chance? Even a cursory appearance spelled death within the hour for a newbie) and our regulars had changed without any emotional 'justification' you might say. And even with Carol, although they gave us enough to make sense of her changing, I still don't believe it was within what was 'believable' for the character we knew.

Regardless, I thought that this was by FAR the saddest WD I have ever seen. That Hershell should die was bad enough, he was SUCH a good person. What will the show be without him?

And the ENDING was just heartbreaking. Rick broken and bleeding, yet the first thing on his mind is his children. Great acting.

What could be more powerful than this? Seeing a man who cares so deeply for his kids and then, apparently, discovers one of them may be dead?

I thought that she WAS dead, but perhaps I'm wrong. I hope she is okay, but I guess it is just delaying the inevitable. How could a little tiny child be safe in a world like this????

Excellent acting by the guy who plays the Governer, throughout, and by the guy who plays Rick......on first viewing I didn't notice the fine details in their work....so engaged in the story...which is the sign of work well done.....

Still interesting how people seem to be divided as to what they like on this show, although many people are in the middle too.
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Strange review tho. Whoever wrote this review is more of a critic than reviewer
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I think it took up to a year befor the gorvernor gained their trust and commenced operation "destroy rick" (if you look at things diff). And I think its time we get an explanation for the cause of the zombieness and all that.
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It was obviously Lizzie that was feeding the walkers rats, since she showed sympathy towards them in the past.
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Lizze seems to be a creepy little psychopath! I said to my brother that real children aren't like that, and he replyed that he knew some who were from jr. High school. Not sure if he meant from when he was teaching or when he was a kid, but I suppose in real life these would be the ones torturing animals etc....
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By the bye, was I the only one underwhelmed by Darryl's reaction when Rick told him about Carol?
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Me too! I actually said out loud 'WHAT?!' when it became clear we missed him telling Daryl and were watching the not-so-interesting aftermath.
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A few notes regarding the original story of TWD (comic) and why everything happened the way it did:
  • The Governor DID attack the prison with a tank
  • During the attack Judith dies (though sh'es killed while being held by a still alive Lory, and they're both pierced by a rifle shot) so she's probably dead.
  • The Prison IS rendered useless in the aftermath of the Governor's attack.
  • Regarding Herschel's execution, there's another main character who dies that way, just replace sword for barbed baseball bat. That and the fact that Herschel was already dead by that point make me think they replaced the characters but kept the scene. Still that happens later in the story so maybe not.
  • What Michonne wanted the most was to make the Governor suffer as she did, in the comic she chops his leg and gouges his eye, so leaving him to die is probably the compromise they made. Pretty tame though.
So, rounding up the similarities, it leaves me with the impression that they finished off what was missing from the original Woodbury/Prison arc, it's just that in the comic it's just woodbury and there's one big assault while in the series it's divided into two. This is probably for the sake of prolonging the series since the comic hasn't yet finished the next arc and they're clearly still trying to remain somewhat faithfull to the original story.
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Thank you for that round up. That was very interesting. I think they are trying to make it so the two stories kind of run together.
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Probably, it's nice to see that they want to be faithful to the comic and not just making the TV version. I mean , during the woodbury assault on the prison I was like "where's the tank?" But now I feel like I got what I wanted.
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Sorry just realized a mistake and an oversight:
  • Error - Hershel was alive but dies in trying to escape the prison
  • Oversight - There IS a Woodbury citizen named Lilly and she's the one who kills the Governor, only she kills him because she's the one who shot Lory and Judith and blames the Governor for it. She shoots him and uses him as zombie bait.
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Whatever one can say about this episode, good or bad, I got what I wanted: everyone out of the prison, traumatized, wounded and scattered in the woods. All kinds of room for new thrilling things to happen. I can't wait!

Too bad they killed "Santa"(stole that description of Hersel from Flintslady here below). After season two and three, I finally found him interesting and full of potential. And there are a lot of others that are not this compelling to me. Too bad.

Moving on: they are all on the run !! Yay !
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I totally agree.....why do they kill off so many characters-between Andrea at the end of last season and now Hershall, and is the baby okay?????
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If Rick had been smart as Jax of Sons Of Anarchy, Hershell would have still being alive, everyone had still being alive, even the Governor, who would have ended shaking hands with Rick, both nodding with their heads without saying much, before departure.
But Rick is not smart, and in The Walking Dead maybe this is more fun.
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Jax also has an amazing crew backing him up. Rick has Daryl and a bunch of idiots lol
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You get the crew you deserved ;) but Jax´people can be quiet big idiots sometimes, but he is smart to anticipate all that
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Walking dead is amazing but no tv show can beat the excitement an trill of Game of Thrones, in love with that show

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Totally with you on that... Walking Dead is entertaining alright, but Game of thrones, is not JUST entertaining, it is GREAT TV!
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Yeah, me too.
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Contrary to this review, I think there was great PURPOSE and MEANING in the way the governor was killed... Michonne slicing him up would serve no poetic justice... He needs to suffer, not only physically but emotionally for the full weight to be driven in...

A lot of people had great claim to kill him, it was expected and would be boring... Michonne left him to a more gritty and brutal fate, to drown in his own blood and be zombified...

Lilly finally killing him served the more symbolic purpose... Eventually, he was killed by the very thing he thought he was protecting... the emotional weight of the act could have been overwhelming, perhaps if it would have been brought about better.
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Lil' Ass Kicker (Judith) was buckled in the car seat when we last saw her alive. When Rick and Carl find the car seat it has been clearly unbuckled.
I think that is a big sign she is alive.
I was surprised Daryl seemed sort of okay with Carol being gone, I thought he would go ballistic.
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Yep Judith is alive, there wasnt any human leftovers in the carseat.
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That's true. Pretty sure zombies can't unbuckle. If they could..they would unlock doors lol.

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I agree with what u said about Judith...

But as for Daryl, I think the show handled it pretty well... He's no longer the guy who loses his wits... we've grown to see him as a man who greatly respects (even if he doesnt condone) others decisions, especially rick's. He didnt say it was right, but he could understand rick's position, in a rational way, without emotions clouding his judgment....

Thats why I respect Daryl so much... not just because he's a crossbow slinging bad ass (like a henchman) but because he has a brain and the ability to be rational and calm in the most testing of times...

Besides, further exploration of this was prevented by the bigger picture at hand..
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Oh, Daryl was mad alright (If it wasn't for the Governor who knows what might have happened)!

I also loved how Daryl repated Carol word by word: "I could have handle Tyreese".
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I hope Carol finds Rick and has to help them.
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I hope Rick finds Carol's new group and they've got to ask her whether or not she's okat that he could stay

...just so that Rick gets a taste of his own medicine (I just know she's going to take him back, even if neither one of them knows what happened to her girls & Daryl).
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I don't agree with most of what Tim said, but that's not what bothers me about this review. What bothers me is that it doesn't seem like he spent the time to write a well thought out piece. We all take different things away from a show, but this just seems sloppy and uncharacteristic of what I'm used to reading here. Hope this is just a fluke...
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He does have a newborn at home. He might be a bit distracted. Or, more likely, he was rushing to get the review out quickly. Nevetheless, I thought it was well done. And while I disagree with a lot of his opinions about the episode, I appreciate the time and effort he put into the review.
And I agree with him that the children carrying Judith in her carrier were jostling that poor baby so vigorously that it was frightening. Also, she's an adorable baby and she better not be dead.
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Oh, I thought that she WAS dead. I wasn't sure who was taking care of her, why did they let children take care of a baby anyway? I'm really angry if she's dead, plus it was so incredibly sad....losing Hershell ALSO very sad.....
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The healthy children were all quarantined with Beth caring for them. But she was needed to fight, so the children had the baby and were taking her to the bus
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Ah, okay that makes sense.
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A very good episode, but not spectacular.
But the review was just too harsh and wantonly nit picky.
I could easily just insult the reviewer but what would that accomplish? He probably wouldn't understand it anyway.
All his gripes could be covered with simple logic...so lets treat him like a 5 year old and explain it to him in short sentences

Why did everyone from Camp Martinez have no problem with the Governor telling them what to do - why wouldn't they. He has organised and protected them.

Why do all the parents in this show WANT their kids to die? Who (Lilly) lets their child (Meghan) play unsupervised on zombie-infested land while all the people who normally protect the perimeter are off attacking a prison? -
Didn't make any difference last week when she was attacked by a walker in the middle of the camp.
She was a parent letting her kid play, in plain sight and was paying attention to a threat coming across the river.

Couldn't Lilly have watched the river for zombies AND kept an eye on her daughter at the same time? - sure, but the kid was happy playing where she was

And why did the zombie that bit Meghan decide to pop up right then? Did that sign keep it from digging through the dirt? - yes the sign and the weight of the mud that Meghan had been moving kept the zombie pinned down.

Why did Lilly show up in the middle of a gunfight with dead Meghan in her arms? And did she carry Meghan's body all the way through the woods to the prison? And why didn't Meghan turn during the long walk there? - We didnt see her die, we saw her get bit. Lilly was understandably traumatized and was bringing her gravely injured daughter to her group in the hope that someone could save her. Meghan bled out on the way.

Why can anyone land a headshot on a zombie with one bullet in the middle of chaos, but when it comes to shooting another human—even one who's retreating with no cover around him (like Rick)—all of a sudden everyone has the aim of a drunken toddler? - zombies are a lot slower than humans and they dont duck or dodge (have you even watched the show?)

Why did a bullet go right through Bob as if he was made out of tissue, but then Daryl held a zombie carcass up as a human shield and suddenly it was like Kevlar? Last week, Tara grabbed a zombie's ankle and it peeled away like the skin of a wet grape. This week, zombies were bulletproof. - Bob was shot through muscle and the zombies bones saved Daryl

Why did the tank shoot holes in everything if the prison was so important? - it was a big prison and was bound to be damaged and the tank did not blow holes in everything - the biggest damage was to a walkway.

Why didn't Rick shoot the Governor instead of punching him in the side of the face? - ran out of bullets

Why didn't Michonne kill the Governor? - because she has grown this season and knew that it was a mortal injury, anymore would just have been sadistic. She stabbed him through the heart, he was going to die.

And why would the writers choose Lilly as the one to kill the Governor? Did they sit around and wonder, "What is the least satisfying way we can kill this dude off?" - why did the traumatized woman kill the man who casually just put a bullet in her daughters head??? You somehow have a problem with her motivation? GROW THE FUCK UP!

Why didn't The Walking Dead just kill the Governor in Season 3 if this was how he was ultimately going to meet his end? - so we could have the Woodbury survivors added to the prison

Why did we have to sit through the last two episodes if all the Governor was going to do was meet a new chick and rally some randoms to fuck up the prison? - because otherwise Rick and co. would of just stayed in the prison - its called a plot device

Why is AMC doing some stupid #FanRomance campaign and what was with that lame commercial about that guy who proposed to his girlfriend at a zombie-themed party? - no idea, content is not available in my region

When Rick told the Governor that he wasn't giving up the prison and they would fight it out if the Governor turned down Rick's request to be roommates, it was exactly what the Governor wanted to hear. - actually it wasn't and that's what the last 2 sub standard episodes were about. The Governor had actually changed. If Rick had just said "ok" and left, there may not have been bloodshed.
But the last 2 episodes also showed that the Governor would crush any opposition, any threat to his new "family" if he was pushed or confronted.
In the last episode he tried to flee before killing the would be leader and assuming leadership himself, because the other guy wouldn't have been ruthless or driven enough (in the Governors mind at least) to ensure his family's safety.

And why did they kill Hershel? = his death affected everyone, he had no enemies in the camp. The rest of the group will mourn his death, not just his kids

Personally I would have changed the previous episodes entirely and have the Governor take over the camp, be the ruthless bastard we knew and make his new family there, instead of the humbled Governor we got, who limped through the previous episodes.
I didn't like the Governor centric episodes, because they seemed to lessen him as a villain, but I didn't let that prejudice me against this episode - which is what I think happen to Tim with this review.

Its pointless insulting Tim personally, but I can understand a lot of peoples distaste for this review.

And this is coming from a guy who posted a joke about lesbians in the comments.
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I agree about most of it, but not about Michonne or Daryl's bullet shield.

Michonne didn't feel that it would have been sadistic to finish the Governor off. She felt that he deserved worse than getting finished off quickly. It was more sadistic to not finish him off.

That Walker's bones didn't cover a big enough part of Daryl's body. And bones aren't that great at stopping bullets anyway. Maybe it can stop one bullet that hits the body at exactly the right spot at exactly the right angle, but it would be hard for the shooter do do that on purpose. It's not going to happen by accident.
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Thank you for answering and rebutting all his arguments. I agree with you 100%.
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*Awesome* comment;-)

"I could easily just insult the reviewer but what would that accomplish? He probably wouldn't understand it anyway...so lets treat him like a 5 year old and explain it to him in short sentences"--lol, I see what you did;-) This is how a person should "insult" someone rather then saying "you're an idiot Cory Tim" Much more sophisticated than "I hate you and will never read anything you write again"

Regarding Camp Martinez~"organized and protected them"--like the good sheep they are

Regarding Lilly supervising her daughter---I would of loved to see her with one eye looking forward and her right eye looking to the right!

I agree with Klotensen regarding Daryl's zombie shield but I also think zombies of different ages are in different states of decomposition. A newly made zombie is more "solid" then an old zombie. Are wet grapes really easier to peel then dry grapes? Why would someone peel grapes except for a cheesy Halloween party "gag"?

Did Michonne really grow? I was hoping she had planned for him to become a zombie that she would walk on a leash (yep, I guess I am a sadistic viewer in that aspect).

The governor did the correct thing by shooting dead Megan in the head but I can understand her mom's reaction at the same time. As a viewer it is easy to depersonalize the situation but all deaths should be followed by sticking something through the corpse's head (unless you want to neutralize the mouth and walk them on a leash)

Part of me was glad Lilly shot the governor but another part of me wanted to see him as a leashed zombie:P

Did the Governor really have to survive the last season to have Woodbury survivors? Also do we know the names of any Woodbury survivors other then the crazy girl and her sister/friend? They just seemed like extras who were there to die. I don't consider Tyresse and the other two (originally in the prison) to be woodbury survivors. I know there were subplots with some of the survivors (the flu, etc...) but they still seemed like "cannon fodder" to me. I do find the two young girls interesting especially since one is good with a gun and one maybe crazy.

The 2 governor centric episodes didn't work for me. I didn't see him more humbled but also didn't see him badass either (maybe he was badass/crazy compared to the sheep group and I wonder how they survived so long on their own)...those episodes just didn't work for me but I'm sure they worked for other people. I should probably re-watch those governor episodes to see how he changed but I just can't bring myself to re-watch those two episodes so i will take your word on him being a changed man.

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I think he was humbled and brought back from a megalomaniacal episode by the demise of Woodbury. He burned the last of it out in his slaughter of the Woodbury "army" he created. He wanted to die, but lacked the will to even kill himself. He knew he had been out of control and told Lily that the leader of Woodbury had "lost it". He knew it was dangerous for him to take leadership, but in the end, his need to protect his ersatz family, especially his new little girl, overwhelmed him. The monster awakened again.
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Cool that you made the effort to address Tim's nitpicks. Nobody else did, so yay!
However you're wrong in one point. Daryl's zombie-shield was insanely stupid. 5.56mm cal from 10-20 feet - at least A bullet would go right through - if not all of them. But I'm ok with these small lapses, they are funny. Comical relief is good sometimes. And I think it was Michonne's purpose to let the Gov die slowly and then become a walker.
And the rest was just fantastic.
Since the girls didn't run along with Tyrese, I think they are going with the rat-guy, the unknown(to us) psychopath. And this psychopath already has Judith. What do you think?
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I dont think Judith is dead - the kids ran that way to save her instead of going to the bus - and Tyrese went with them. We saw how they were struggling with the seat, so they took him out
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That makes sense. That car seat was heavy. And Judith has become a chunker.
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*shit, flintslady did it too*
Addressing Tim's nitpicks that is.
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Nice reply to the questions of the review writer.
Very smart!
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And it wasn't very difficult - just common sense really
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I'm stunned that Tim just posted a stellar review of the most recent Sons of Anarchy episode after following this TWD thread for the past couple of days. Sons has been a bloodbath all season, but the Sons never have to pay for their cold-blooded murders. Tim was okay with that evidently but questions Hershel's death in TWD?
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Good point, I think the fact that SOA wasn't just coming off 2 episodes that he loathed could have been the difference
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Oh, I didn't read previous reviews of SOA--sorry! I just joined this site a week or so ago but couldn't believe the rave review of last night's SOA. We are all entitled to our opinions, but that series has really gone down the drain in the past year.
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welcome to the mad house!
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I think there has been a drop in quality of SOA, but it's still a good show - and it always ramps up near the end of a season.
I soured on the SOA review style - Tim cracking unfunny jokes put me off them.
If you are new to the site, you may want to check out the communities - lots of goodies there!
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I agree with everything in this post except maybe with Michonne's reason for not killing the Governor. He was in pain and suffering a great deal so it would have been more merciful to end him but I thought she wanted him to suffer for what he did to Hershel, her people and the prison itself (their safe place for more than 6 months). She knew he was fatally wounded in a field swarming with hungry walkers, she let him be eaten alive with the knowledge he will become one of the undead.
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There could be any reason, but I think she was just proving that she was over him. Live or die, he wasn't going to have any power over her any more.
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I would have loved to see him get gnawed on. Also in the comics.. I think its the character of Lilly that kills him.
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Another perfectly logical explanation - well done
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What a party pooper of a reviewer, the votes say it all.
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LOL at the questions... they are perfectly valid, but you can make this list for every show and every episode. Not many writers use common sense, ever.
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While I agree that most of the time TWD is just "very good" instead of great, I'm going to answer all of your points, because I think some of your griping is a little unfounded.
  • Why did everyone from Camp Martinez have no problem with the Governor telling them what to do after getting their panties all the way up their butts when Pete said he was going to take over? This is residual from last week, but it made me all the more crazy when these dopes just agreed to attack a prison without asking even one question. "Yeah sure, let's go take over this prison because our new leader said so. You know, the new leader with the evil eyepatch who just showed up a few days ago right before our other leaders mysteriously died."

Because in a zombie apocalypse, many people are willing to follow a friendly demeanour and a take charge attitude in the hopes that this person will help them survive. Also some of the group were ex military, taking orders from the man who is clearly in charge comes naturally. By killing Martinez and Pete, he put the groups nerves on edge, making it easier to convince them of something they normally wouldn't accept so easily. Politicians do this all the time.

  • Why do all the parents in this show WANT their kids to die? Who (Lilly) lets their child (Meghan) play unsupervised on zombie-infested land while all the people who normally protect the perimeter are off attacking a prison? Couldn't Lilly have watched the river for zombies AND kept an eye on her daughter at the same time? Maybe tell Meghan to play near the lookout point instead of a hundred yards behind Lilly? And why did the zombie that bit Meghan decide to pop up right then? Did that sign keep it from digging through the dirt?
Yes Lily is clearly an idiot. But as we established in the previous episodes she'd been living in an apartment and was fairly protected. The idea that a walker might pop out of the ground was completely foreign to her. Plus she was extremely rattled by the walker across the river. When people are rattled they tend to make bad decisions. Walkers that have dead a while don't tend to get agitated until a food source is near them. By lifting the sign and disturbing the mud, she alerted it to her presence.

  • Why did Lilly show up in the middle of a gunfight with dead Meghan in her arms? And did she carry Meghan's body all the way through the woods to the prison? And why didn't Meghan turn during the long walk there?
You can clearly see the car she came in behind her. TWD has already established that people turn at different rates, considering Megan was bit in the shoulder who knows how long it took her to bleed out and die.

  • Why can anyone land a headshot on a zombie with one bullet in the middle of chaos, but when it comes to shooting another human—even one who's retreating with no cover around him (like Rick)—all of a sudden everyone has the aim of a drunken toddler?
Because a walker is a slow moving ambling target. But when your adrenaline is up because someone is running towards you shooting an automatic weapon at your ass your aim can be off. Played Gears of War? Or any FPS? Shooting an automatic weapon with timing and accuracy takes practice. I think something like watching Santa getting his head chopped off might also affect your nerves.


  • Why did a bullet go right through Bob as if he was made out of tissue, but then Daryl held a zombie carcass up as a human shield and suddenly it was like Kevlar? Last week, Tara grabbed a zombie's ankle and it peeled away like the skin of a wet grape. This week, zombies were bulletproof.

This is actually the science of bullets. Speed, distance, weapon, calibre, angle all affect bullet wounds. The human body can actually stop a close range bullet with muscle or bone. Plus it's human nature to aim at the largest mass in front of you (i.e. chest). The walker that Tara grabbed was more decayed and she was grabbing at the legs.

  • Why did the tank shoot holes in everything if the prison was so important?
You can look at this two ways. The Governor never really wanted the prison, he just needed a new group of people to take it down with. Or once he saw Megan was dead, he realized it didn't matter anymore, and if Rick wasn't going to give it up, well he wasn't going to get to keep it either.

  • Why didn't Rick shoot the Governor instead of punching him in the side of the face?
Because when you are #muchMan like Rick Grimes is and another man offends you, you want/need to beat it out of him. Did you not see his fight with Tyreese, Rick clearly has a lot of anger in him that can not simply be appeased with a bullet. Why do you think people box?


  • Why didn't Michonne kill the Governor? Seriously, WHY? You said you were going to, Michonne. Now you're just a windbag of empty promises. And why would the writers choose Lilly as the one to kill the Governor? Did they sit around and wonder, "What is the least satisfying way we can kill this dude off?"
What show are you watching? She stabbed him through the heart with her blade. After helping up Rick she was going to finish the job, but leaving him to suffer and possibly be eaten alive seemed more fitting. Earlier in the season Michonne said she wasn't angry anymore, she was going to kill the Gov because it needed to be done. And it did to save Rick. Cutting his head off would have been fan service overkill. Having Lily be the one to put a bullet in his head was perfect, because somewhere deep inside the Governor he believed he was doing all this for her.

  • Why didn't The Walking Dead just kill the Governor in Season 3 if this was how he was ultimately going to meet his end? Why did we have to sit through the last two episodes if all the Governor was going to do was meet a new chick and rally some randoms to fuck up the prison?
This has been discussed quite frequently and as a writer for this site I'm sure you know about the production problems last season that led to the show runner leaving. There were clearly some disagreements about the direction the show was going last season and some stuff was changed and pushed. No biggie.

  • Why is AMC doing some stupid #FanRomance campaign and what was with that lame commercial about that guy who proposed to his girlfriend at a zombie-themed party?

You got me there.
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Thank you for pointing out that there was a changing of the guard last season that impacted the plot. I think another reason why the Governor wasn't killed last season was because.. David Morrissey is a great actor. We all know the character is suppose to die... they wouldn't be able to drag it past the mid-season finale anyways.. but let's give him some good material (ie the last two episodes...say what you want about them... David was outstanding...)
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You've written a great reply to a very biased review and I completely agree with what u wrote about d Governor's death.... Lilly killing the governor was great poetic justice... He suffered a full emotional impact of his actions, being killed by the thing he thought he was protecting
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Boxing worked for Thea in Arrows.
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Great episode all around looking forward to the second half of the season with no Prison/Governor!!
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I really liked this episode , my only problem with it was the following : after the Governor cuts Hershel's head off and all hell breaks loose , why didn't one out of the twenty guys ( including the Governor himself who hates Michonne with his guts ) that were there shot Michonne in the head ? I was willing to let it go until her escape became the most important part of the episode , that's just not right . And why did the Governor killied Hershel instead of Michonne ? Between the two of them it was an easy choice for him . I don't like it when it shows that writers put a character in a position where it should definitely be killed and then back down just because of its popularity and appel to the people who watch the show , that just not good writing . The rest of the episode was all kinds of awesome , although the batlle could have lasted a little bit longer .
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I don't think he intended to kill Hershel at first. He knew Michonne... she is like a porcupine, hard to get close to, and he also talked to Hershel in the trailer who seemed to have a well balanced, friendly personality. So it was safe to assume that Hershel would be more loved by the people inside the prison (come on, he is Santa with a missing leg)... it was the logical choice to use him as a bargaining chip. But then Rick started talking about coming back from what everyone did and, after 2 whole episodes of the Governor trying and failing the coming back thing, he lost it. He said "liar" and hit the closest one to him, who happened to be Hershel.
The first thing Rick did was shoot the Governor giving Michonne enough time to roll away. The other guys didn't shoot Michonne because, they didn't know her and didn't perceive her as a threat (what would you focus more on, some angry people shooting at you or some tied up woman rolling in the grass?).
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OH, I SEE now. I didn't get it about the 'Lier' comment. He HAD tried as hard as he could to return to his 'normal' state-but he just couldn't do it.

That's because traumas are re-enacted until they come into awareness and can be healed. If he had not been beaten by his Dad etc., he would not have had that rage and sadism in him to start with.

And somehow, all he could do was repeat the trauma of losing his daughter. That seemed the only thing that brought him alive, reconnecting with the 'ghost' of her, yet that compulsion to repeat and try to 'win', that is, to somehow make it as though she had never died in the first place, was just too strong.

It may be as much about his feelings of not protecting her, that guilt and pain, than anything else. Maybe she was the only truely 'good' thing he imagined there to be in his life. He thought that as a child he had been 'bad' sometimes-sounds like an abused kid who still wasn't able to see that he did nothing wrong, that it was only his Dad who was sick and 'bad'.....
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You made a very interesting point... I didnt think of it that way
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Hershel's death would make more of an emotional impact, on the audience as well as the people in d prison... Killing Michonne would be more of a personal vendetta... but by killing Hershel, he is hurting more or less every person in d prison... and thats the kind of man he is.... Killing is not enough for him, he thrives on torture and pain!
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I agree. And the Governor even said.. you are a better man than Rick. If he recognized the awesomeness that is Herschel then he knew that savagely killing him would hurt everyone there. You can say that Rick essentially destroyed his way of life at Woodbury. Herschel destroyed Rick's moral compass. It's the best he could do, because he didn't have Rick's children to torture...a Lori to rape.. or anything.
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His way of life wasn't destroyed if Martinez's camp is any hint, so I'd say The Governor killed Hershel to prove Rick was a liar.

In the end, the only liar was Brian himself, for he did come back from the things he had done, even if Rick and Co. did not.
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None of them knew Michonne quite like the Governor does, all they saw was tied up woman about to mourn her friend

...but little did they know her sword was not a fashion statement.
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I loved Daryl's reaction upon hearing what happend to Carol!

Still waiting for Tyreese though...
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My guess is Tyreese and the kids end up meeting up with Carol down the road, and her not telling him the truth, until they meet up again with the others and then...
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Not one of their best efforts but I will still give it a B grade.I got a satisfying resolution on the Governors storyline and a main character( maybe the best character) was killed horribly..

I just have one question..Why bring back the GMAN and give him two hours of backstory(changed or not) just to off him in his finest hour? IMO I don't think writers knew what to do with him at the end of S3.. OH WELL ! Feb can't come soon enough..
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I believe it all comes down to the final phrases between the Gov and Rick: "We get to come back", "Liar". Some people like Rick do get back but others don't, like the Gov who obviously never recovered from his daughter's (actual) death. The 2 episodes before this one were there to build on this idea: In a zombie infested world where people have to become monsters to survive, is it possible to maintain your humanity?
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Excellent points.

It did seem a bit rushed. I would have liked to have seen the Governer surprising Hershell and Machionne, and the entire episode could have EASILY been material for 2 or 3 more.

Why are they in such a hurry? It feels like they are trying to jump to a point which they have in mind, yet wasted time on meaningless episodes at the prison for the first half of the season.

But it is GOOD to see them out of there. Too bad they got rid of Hersell! Why did they have to do that I wonder.....The Governer WAS excellently acted and very interesting.....
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First note, that car seat is way too small for that baby.

Did anyone else want to give a standing ovation to the little gun-wielding girls? Why does it seem that the only people really kicking ass on this show anymore are the KIDS?!?

Um, who is doing rat taxidermy in the basement? WTH?

Why did we just watch two long hours of whatever-those-last-two-episodes were just to kill everyone off?

I can't believe they killed Hershel- and what was that freaking speech Rick gave? WHY?!? Was ANYONE fooled or shocked when the Governor whacked Hershel's head off? The guy was a total nutjob from the get-go (remember the creepy scenes in his man-cave-zombie-fishtank-hidey-hole brushing his zombie daughters rotting scalp?- dude was a sick monkey) and anyone with half a brain would not be like 'oh, we can all change, kum ba yah!' after having experienced the Woodbury side of the Governor.

All my ZOMG aside, I enjoyed this episode. I am hoping Judith didn't turn into a juicy zombie snack, although, honestly, the feasibility of a BABY surviving in that universe seems pretty dang low. Also, did anyone see where the kids went?
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I will never give a standing ovation to child shooting someone in the head with a gun. I found that scene extremely unsettling.

It wasn't a rat, it was a rabbit, and my money is on Lizzy for the dissection.

Did you expect Rick to just start shooting? Or give up the prison? I'm curious.

Baby Judith is alive and in Tyreese's arms, possibly after sustaining a bullet wound :(
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I think that scene was meant to be very disturbing and it hit the mark, spot on. The Walking Dead is set in a place where the writer's seem to be trying to make it clear that there isn't room for kids to just be kids(after all, we see where making mud pies gets you). That scene was the fruition of Carol's 'kill or be killed' education. I wasn't applauding the shooting or killing- I was applauding the kids not cowering in a corner with their hands over their ears because it means THEY GET TO LIVE.

I don't think there was a *right* move for Rick really. It was a total Catch-22 but I was hoping they had some kind of plan. I know they were still getting over the sickness but it just felt really unrealistic that Rick would think they could bury the hatchet (especially given that he wasn't privy to the Governor's journey as we, the audience, were).

I don't know- is Judith another lesson for Rick? When he tries to be reasonable he loses what he cares most about? I thought the Governor's story was a real morality tale- as soon as he started murdering people to get what he wanted (safety for his new 'family') I had a suspicion it was not going to go well for him.

Also, was his response to Rick reasonable? If the goal is to get the prison- why go in with the tank? Especially after he voiced the very reasoning behind *not* using the tank.

I have felt very frustrated with Rick- from the just-wanting-to-be-a-farmer thing to trying to keep Carl from facing the reality of the world to kicking Carol out. Carol lost everything and her response was to get stronger and empower the people she cared about to protect themselves. Rick just wants the world to go back to how it was before, it would seem. I'm sure that everyone would want that- but hello! It was difficult to watch Rick floundering in that situation- totally at the mercy of the Governor- he seemed very impotent. I think that was partly behind my reaction to the girls (and Daryl and Michonne)- after Rick it felt good to see people dig in and fight for themselves and each other.
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More than no room for the kids to be kids, I believe the writers are blunt to illustrate kids don't survive on their own.

Same as adults find in strenght in numbers, sooner or later, children have to keep an adult either to cover their blind spot or to use the weapons they are too small to use.

Tyreese could cover them in ways baby Judith or the smallest children could not, hence the reason Lizzie and her sister saved him: this is how they all survive.
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You just spoke my mind in the whole Rick thing... From the first season itself I have been intensely annoyed with Rick.. All he seems to do is make bad decisions.... And he strikes me as extremely weak the way he keeps hoping things would get better instead of dealing with things realistically.... Further, whats worse is that the writers seem determined to keep justifying their keeping him as a leader!
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I agree. This only shows that Lizzie is a psychopath.
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No! No bullet wounds for the baby. She is alive and well, eating smashed bananas and wearing feety pajamas. Is it to much to ask to have a healthy happy baby in a zombie apocalypse?
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A car seat is hardly practical to run, someone wounded took the baby out of it, the blood stain isn't Judith's but rather Maggie, Bob, Lily or any other person with blood that might have took the baby out of there.
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I think so, too. My first thought was that someone had to undo the strap and those are not always easy- I don't think the zombie could have gotten her out of there.
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I think the kids shooting those guys was interesting... if those people sent the kids out in the wild, they ARE killing them in a way.... When those kids shot that person, and the lady looks their way, her look in that split-second is brilliant! This brings her face to face with the idea that she now has to REALLY kill the kids or be killed. This little moment holds an immense emotional and symbolic weight. I just wish they could have built it up a little better.
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That was really a big reality-strikes moment when the woman hesitates because they are children and then that's it. I agree that it had huge impact. These people are DEFINITELY not living in our world or by our rules.
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I don't think @Audilbe would applaud kids using guns in the real world, but this is a post-apocalyptic tv show, and they won't be any less dead if they are shot or eaten because they are kids.
I have my money on Lizzy for the dissection too, plus it's far more interesting than an adult doing it.
I thought Rick was just buying time with his chat with the Governor while Daryl armed up the prison.
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I think it was Lizzy, too. She's got a creepy air about her, doesn't she?

I thought it was a really telling juxtaposition: Lizzy getting the guns versus Megan making mud pies(or mud pb&js).

I thought that was the plan- for Rick to buy time but then wouldn't the group have gone out and flanked the Governor's group? And Daryl was waiting. I thought it was interesting that they showed Carl with Daryl wanting to shoot the Governor. That seemed like a big flashing sign that Rick's impulse to try and make a peaceful compromise was way off.
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I think there is difference between accepting that in a televised apocalyptic world there are going to be instances of children having to do very grown up things, and suggesting that these things should be applauded. I don't have anything against @Audible, but I think there was a reason that it was Lizzie who pulled the trigger, as she is becoming more and more unhinged. I'm not so sure many people will be cheering for her by the end of the season.
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I agree. and this brings up the question: Just exactly HOW human will the next generation (if there is one) be? And what is going on in real life, that we have these kids taking guns to school and killing people, at pretty young ages???

I have to say that all these video games which younger kids aren't supposed to have-but DO have-which makes shooting people more and more realistic has something to do with it.

A healthy happy kid with no significant problems is not going to shoot anyone though-unless accidentally.

YOu know, maybe TWD is also a kind of exploration of our sense of morality too....sure it's just a TV show.....but still, I was so surprised with Breaking Bad to find there were STILL people, in the last episodes, who were actually ROOTING for Walt to get away!

Even though he had done heinous things FAR beyond the pale of ANYTHING that was expected at the beginning.....it's fascinating....the dynmics are probably the same as with charismatic dictators etc....once you identify with someone, they can get away with a LOT.
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Still hurts, even after two days Hershel's death still hurts.
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The whole thing was heart wrenching.
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:(
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Daryl & Michonne still kick ass & don't whine about it.
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Honestly sometimes I'm not sure I can handle the emotional stress and turmoil of this show. Hershel you will be missed dearly, it just all feels a bit empty now that you're gone.
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Herschel and Maggie were on Talking Dead, and she started to cry every time she talked about it. Then they showed an interview with Beth and she started crying. The whole cast seems extremely close.
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Ironically Carol's teachings saved Tyreese's life.
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Plus, her own two little girls, for there was no adult with Carol's daughters by the time they found Tyreese and they were alive, eliminated the threat and saved the only adult around them.

By the Governorstandards of judging one's life, Carol was worthy where beither Rick nor him were: both Meghan and Judith are/presumed dead where Lizzie & Mica are very much alive.
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Ironic, indeed. I was thinking they could have used Carol... I don't think we've seen the last of her (but then who knows...).
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It would be interesting if Tyrese met Carol after the prison and she helps him survive before he finds out she did the killing.
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Oh yeah! Good point- he never found out... I'd be interested to see that develop.. :)
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You can just imagine the script read-thru for that episode, with certain actors saying "Er, I don't seem to have many pages..."
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The second half of the third season has put me off entirely. That was my (very late) wake up call. From that moment on, I just stopped believing that The Walking Dead would ever be a great show. I kept on watching it because I enjoy some of the characters, and, of course, zombies! But in general, It's just another meh show.
The Fourth Season has shown great development for me, though. I enjoyed these eight episodes very much! Of course, it is still a pretty ok show, with lots (LOTS) of plot holes.
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Season 4 FTW! It's the best it's been since Season 1. Though my fav episode was in Season 3 (Clear) over all it was an extremely weak season.
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I love the actor who played Morgan. I wish Rick had found him before he became so ill. I hated it when they left him behind.
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I think he'll be back. At least I hope he will, despite his crazy at least understood fortification and gathering supplies.
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Clear was amazing!! Truly one of the series' best, even though the terrible season it was in.
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So the point of spending over 2 episodes on the Gov and his lame surrogate family was so he could end up back where he was at the end of Season 3?! I'm so glad he's dead just so we can move on. I was bored at Woodbury and I was bored with 'Brian'. Maybe now that we're finally done with the Govenor storyline we can get back to how awesome the first quarter of the season was.
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The point is that The Governor answered the question: you can come back from the things you've done, Rick wasn't the liar here.

His family also answered the question " How do you meassure someone's worth?"Per Brian's own words its by the amount of people that person kept alive: The Governor couldn't keep Meghan alive, Rick couldn't keep Judith (presumably), but Carol kept Lizzie & Mica alive.

Notice that Hershel also kept Beth and Maggie alive (it's not a coincidence IMO).
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I agree, and I love it when themes like this are explored and continued throughout a season/and the run of the show. This is a basic theme-how human will those who survive be????

Lizzie is frighteningly able to, unflinchingly, kill another human being. That's pretty 'inhuman'. In the military they have to run people through basic training, basically to condition them to obey orders regardless of their own feelings and instincts, so that they will be able to kill others.

And still people come back so badly traumatized that it effects the rest of their lives.

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It's also a new way to approach to riches in world where money isn't worth anything.

Money didn't keep Lizzie & her sister alive, power didn't save Maggie & Beth: their parent/parents did it. Its what makes Hersehel more powerful than The Governor and Carol more powerful than Rick.
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good points.
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Good entertainment and that is all it needs to be, none of these seasons have bored or failed to entertain me, though a few characters annoyed me, but that is always the case. Now that half the season is over, I will say this, I miss Carol, maybe she did do wrong, but i liked her character, it was one that seemed almost useless when first introduced, but grew into something great. And I bet the little ass kicker is not dead. That is all, can't wait for the 2nd half.
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Governor: We got guns, ammo & A TANK!
Rick: We got DARYL.

Nuf Said
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And Carl.
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Zombies: We got CLARA! We win.

(Sorry, I couldn't help muself).
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By the time the fight was over I had already forgotten about Hershel dying cuz that showdown was INSANE!!!

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Hershel!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
:'(
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"runaway train of a show, but hey, that's The Walking Dead, television's okayest series that we all want to be great (but that probably never will be)."

After you've spent just about the entire season saying how this is the best season of the show and they turned it around and blah blah blah, ok seriously, at this point, I feel like the opinionative evaluation of the shows stock is getting tiresome, and difficult to get a bead on in your reviews. Each review seems to have a whole new personality to it in how you feel about the show, and I find it a little unnerving. I guess at this rate I'll just try and ignore that and read it for the synopsis?

Episode had some head scratching points to be certain, but I still thought it wasn't half bad. Wasn't entirely sure why they made it look like Michone was giving the Governer the ultimate dirtnap (killing him so he'll zombify) only for his now ex girlfriend to practically show him mercy by shooting him in the head (she must not understand she was doing him a favor).
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Lilly killing the governor was great poetic justice... He suffered a full emotional impact of his actions, being killed by the thing he thought he was protecting...

In a way this is in fact his BIGGEST punishment... Getting killed by zombies is ONLY gritty, nothing special bout it.... Getting killed by an enemy is understandable... but he was killed by the person he thought he was protecting! That final realization that Lizzie will kill him must have been more painful than any form of brutality that zombies or michonne can possibly inflict upon him!
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He wasn't killed by the thing he was (poorly) protecting, because who he was really trying to protect was Lillys daughter, I got the sense that the Governor didn't care quite as much about Lilly (I don't even think he much cared for his original wife from the sound of it).

Again, who said anything about being killed by zombies? It was my hope (and probably Michones too) that he would BECOME a zombie...and then have the privilege of getting killed by a human again (because zombies don't tend to kill other zombies on the show I noticed).
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The GOverner wouldn't really be there anymore, though, if he were a zombie. They explained WAY back that the part of the brain that makes you 'you' is gone and does not come back.

It's really just a walking bag of bones....just the mechanical body that remains......if you believe in souls, you could say that the soul is gone.....
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Also a lot of your "why" questions are very answerable...I just answered why Michone didn't "completely" kill the Governer up above (while you probably shouldn't leave a guy like that even barely breathing, I'd say being run through like that is garunteed eventual death, and this way he gets to experience being a zombie, I'm sure that's how Michone wanted it...because then she can kill him again, or use him as her new collared jawless zombie, or whatever. I'd say Lilly interfered with Michones plan to have a zombie governer slave if anything..
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The only thing that died in this episode was the tradition of killing one of the black token characters in this kind of installments. Props to the show.
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Props indeed, but let's be honest, as far as characters go, Bob and Tyrese (for all his whining from the previous episodes) kind of DO feel expendable. At least, I wouldn't be terribly sad if either of them had died. Santa dying though? That's pretty sad.
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Sasha lived too. Yay
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I get sad when everybody dies: from Merle to Hershel, from Meghan to Clara, from Morgan's wife to Tara's lover.

I can't help myself, this show makes me care in a way few shows can.
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When Jacqui, Herschel, Sofia, T-Dogg, Otis, Dale, Duane The Doc, the Prisoner who liked Carol (forgot his name) even Merle died, it made me sad.

Shane, Lori, Andrea - Meh, shit happens.
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I agree, for someone that spend her whole character arc trying to overcome suicidal thoughts, to kill herself in order not to turn was the ultimate sacrifice

To betray everything Andrea accomplished just so that her corpse wouldn't betray another, like Milton's betrayed him. It was sad and beautiful all at the same time.
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His name was Axl. I liked him.
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Actually I felt quite horrible bout Andrea... I know most people didnt like her, but she was an interesting character and she was really strong willed, and had such clarity which is hard to find in most characters... When she let beth attempt suicide to DECIDE for herself whether she wants to live... or her idea on how it is better to die on your own terms ... Even if i dont completely agree with her ideas, I still respect her mental clarity....

Also, I hope to god Tyresse dies real quick... He's weak and pathetic, and his rages are irritating!
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Small thing that everyone seems to be missing in all the reviews I read -- it clearly looks like Lilly DROVE over to the prison, as there is a car behind her with the doors flung wide open. As this car is not in the arrangement of cars/tank in front of the prison, I imagine they left her with a car (in case of emergency) and she drove over after Meghan was bit. It's such a small detail, but everyone seems to be misreading it as implausible that she got there so quickly. Even in Tim's review above -- the car is RIGHT BEHIND HER in the picture!! That was my take-away, anyway.
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Wow, what a commotion!
Why? Is this show sometimes really, really great? Yes it is - sometimes.
Is this show sometimes so stupid, it's almost retarded? Yes, of course it is.
Am I annoying as hell for asking and answering those unnecessary questions? You bet I am.
However, this is a big television production so a lot of people have a say in a lot of stuff. And a lot of those people are just extremely stupid. You know, in a silly way. They are silly people. So we all need to thank them for being in the filming industry because do you want those silly people to be cops? Or your next pilot? Or your dentist? Think about the guy or gal who came up with the idea of Daryl taking a zombie as a human shield against assault rifles from close distance. Do you wanna have this guy or gal fly a 747? See, it's all a thing of perspective. If you like or, in an irrational way, love this show you gotta get over this silly stuff. Weed helps FOR EXAMPLE.
I had the feeling that the showrunners knew how much the fans were disappointed about the 3rd season's finale and the season so long(with some lenghty and pretentious hick-ups) is doing fine in trying to make up for the respectively unnecessary mess of Kirkman trying to make his strongest arc in the books go for two seasons instead of one.
Anyway, is anyone else seeing how terrible it is right now for the kids and Judith? I'm pretty sure the baby wasn't eaten, too. But I think it should have been. Because what the (still unknown)weirdo(serial killer) is going to do to her and the girls... yikes! It's going to be horrible for them and probably Rick and Carl for finding out soon.
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I loved the zombie shield. I was afraid Darryl was a goner.
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Daryl shouldn't need to carry a weapon. He IS a weapon.
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I enjoy this episode and I do like how the writers have thrown everything out of the window: safety inside the prison, good beds, access to water and food, tranquility once in a while, walls, Hershell, though I don´t think Judith is gone.
Now we get two or more parallel groups for a while surviving out there, again.
For a Zombie story it was getting to predictable and could have gone the way of the farm, boring. But after the Clash of the Titans (the governor vs Rick) we get CHAOS, and I welcome this very much. People surviving out there against the zombies is what made the first season so good.
I will like to answer one the the many questions Tim has.
Why didn't Michonne kill the Governor?
Because as Rick said, people change and everyone can get to comeback. I think in those few seconds, Michonne realise she had lost her thirst of revenge and saw the Governor as just a poor lost soul. He was going to died anyway from that wound, maybe even get eaten (was that what Michonne wished for?).
Or was just a copy of Person of Interest where Fusco and not Reese killed the bastard. Here somebody unexpected did the job instead of Michonne. Her mind was somewhere else. Maybe saving Judith or Carl?
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I really enjoyed the first season when I stumbled upon it. What I liked were scenes like when Rick rides into the city on the horse and there is all the suspense and drama of getting to safety and then the group has to get back to camp, etc.. I think that tension of *everyonemightdieRIGHTFREAKINNOW* made it good- so I agree it is a good thing everything has been thrown into chaos and all the security, etc. has been cast aside. I am hoping that being in the crucible will inject some kick-ass back into some of the characters that have lost it (RICK).
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I think the reason Michonne left the Governor after she stabbed him was because she wanted him to turn. She looked at him like she could have easily stabbed him through the eye but he was already dying; he wouldn't have made it. But she knows how much he hates Walkers and how he saw his daughter turn into one. Perhaps she thought it was a fate worse than simple death for him.
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That's what I thought so, Lily looked like triage, Michonne looked like vendetta.
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Agreed
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I'm finding all the criticism of Tims review interesting. Reviews by their nature are subjective. Tim is giving you his opinion on this episode. It is totally fine if you disagree with him, it would be completely unrealistic to expect everyone to come here and agree with the reviewer. I agree in this instance with his opinions but I often have disagreed with Tim. I find it much more interesting to read a review that has strong opinions, than say a recap review. Having someone with a strong opinion on the episode is interesting, it creates more debates in the comments. If we all came here and agreed all the time it would be boring.
Also I don't think Tim hates the show. I think he loves the show and that that is frustration in his reviews, not hate. I think this, because this is how I feel. This show often touches on true greatness, but then it does something that reduces it back to mediocrity again. To me, this show is like an underachieving kid, I want to shake it and yell you could do so much better.
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As I said in my own comment, his opinion is continuously uneven (yes I know he feels the show is uneven, and it definitely is, but the review itself almost bounces around more than the show does :P ) .

It affects the quality of the review when it feels like the reviewers opinion of the show is practically bi-polar. One week the show is "finally the show it was meant to be" the next week this show is "beyond saving". It gets annoying to plod through to get to the few decent parts of the review.
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This is what I usually say about his reviews of shows like Revolution and Under the dome. But here he made a long list of reasons to hate the episode and was objectively wrong (not just an opinion) about many of those things.
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@Dirk13 Well I disagree, this is the first time this season that Tim has gone to town on an episode (excluding the last two reviews which I didn't read because I only watched those awful episodes last night). I felt that up until now he's been very positive about the show, much more than I would be.
@tnetennba I don't think these were reasons to hate the show, just pointing out some flaws. I had a lot of these same issues while I was watching the episode. But then I find these inconsistencies in the show every week.
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Really? Have you only been following since this season? Because he most certainly not been consistent. Yes, it's true, we all did rather loathe the farm/sophia story arc, but it just gets tiresome, especially when there are many things to like about an episode (sometimes even walking away from it thinking it was darn good) to see a review that paints such a different (and difficult to really agree with) story. The show's ultimate fate and direction is lamented just a bit too much when in reality it has been on the upturn for the better for quite a while (I liked the Governer two parter at first....at first...it's where they went with it that ultimately made it flawed, but it seems like I was the only one who was actually holding out and waiting first to see before passing judgement).
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judith is totally alive, cuz the last time I checked zombies can't unbuckle car seats, hell most adults can't. plus they don't carry their food off to eat it, so they would have just eaten her right there. I think Lily did kill the governor. michonne wanted him to suffer that's why she went back to kill him,but decided, no i'd rather you suffer, but then lily came and killed him, for revenge on basically the whole episode. since she didn't want him to take the prison, he said no one was going to die ( 99%) did ( her sister is still alive hiding), and her daughter died, cuz she's a bad parent and she needed someone to blame.
overall i actually have liked this season, at the end of season 3 I thought I would stop watching, as I felt the governor was the worst character ever, but i tuned in to this season just to see, and was happily surprised with the new character development of all the side characters. the prison psycho is similar to the comic, but won't be the same person, and the fight was somewhat simlar to comic as well. all things I love. the governor was a hell of a better character this season. the whole i don't give anymore fucks when his surrogate daughter died, was great, but I do wish the fight was longer. overall good season so far!
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Well like a lot of people I thought the mid-season finale was great and that this season has easily eclipsed last season's posturing and ultimately unmoving storyline.

Highlights:

Hershel's death was pretty impactful and I enjoyed how they shot it, we all knew it was coming as the Govenor lowered the katanaa but I still thought his icy cold "liar..." was pretty apt to the untrusting selfish monster he has become. However the true highlight was the reaction, no stand-off or thought but simple blind rage from Hershel's friends as Rick simply raises and starts firing uncaring for his or anyone's safety.

I personally have loved the Govenor's mini-arc as it has built the two sides to a head much more effectively and even convincingly than I ever found the animosity to be between the prison and Woodbury. Woodbury has everything and so it often felt as if the Govenor was the sole reason they were having a war, whilst his new group had nothing, had witnessed what happens to unprotected camps and was growing more desperate.

Having said that they kept it believable by flicking the gun fight switch so quickly and abruptly that those people are simply caught up in the moment in a fight or flee instinct so that they don't question their actions as much. Lily's sister not being able to turn savage was also a nice realistic point, along with probably the line of the episode "He chopped a man's head off...with a sword!"

I found the most jarringly shocking moment to be when the kids suddenly saved Tyrese, I was expecting possibly a fake surrender from the trapped former boxing gym runner but was pretty surprised when the camera revealed the little girl to have been the one to put the attacking man down, a second or two or realisation and shock plain on the other attacker's face before "boom" down she went as well. Left me wide eyed.


All in all I was really happy with the episode and as I say this last half season in general. I am one of those who finds myself often disagreeing with Tim on reviews but along with most am finding new levels of disparity in view points when it comes to this review. All of the questions you raise either have an obvious answer (e.g. Michonne DID kill the Govenor, he was not surviving that), are just plain stupid (e.g. Of course they can't have everyone person being a sniper quality shot on other humans, not only is it different to aiming at a non-firing zombie that doesn't dodge about or shoot back but just think, are they really gonna have all the main characters just get shot, although a couple did get hit), or seem so riddled with hate towards this show you are ignoring the points of scenes (e.g. the point of Lily bringing back Meghan is to illustrate that the Govenor has changed and to finally show Lily the monster he is, also as zues22t says below S01E06 explained reanimation time can be vary variable up to around 8 hours).
Others have already pointed out the pedantic nature of your questions many times so no need for me to rehash them all, but I do wonder if perhaps an antagonistic/inflammatory review gets more comments and more traffic and is therefore your goal or you simply do have a minority opinion (according to the poll) on a show you review.

Each to their own of course but I for one have a very different opinion to you, that is clear. Bring on the later half of the season.
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