The Wire Forums

HBO (ended 2008)

Official Discussion Thread - "-30-" (S05E10) (Spoilers)

  • Avatar of peekone

    peekone

    [1]Mar 4, 2008
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    SERIES FINALÉ

    Carcetti maps out a damage-control scenario with the police brass in the wake of a startling revelation from Pearlman and Daniels, their choices are either to clean up the mess, or hide the dirt; McNulty, with his leads predictably drying up, asks Landsman to pull police off the homeless case, until a fresh homicide ramps up the investigation; a frustrated Haynes finds his concerns about Templeton falling on increasingly deaf ears; Levy, convinced he has the upper hand, but caught in a legal quandary, plays a cat-and-mouse game with Pearlman; Bubbles debates whether to greenlight a newspaper story about his life; Dukie seeks out an old mentor for a loan; Marlo oversees a new Co-Op order as he maps out his next move; as the officers stage an Irish wake for another dearly departed officer, the seeds of the future are sown throughout Baltimore.

    Discuss.
    Also, make sure you all remember to rate the episode here (when available), giving it a rating it truly deserves.
    Edited on 03/04/2008 10:49pm
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  • Avatar of peekone

    peekone

    [2]Mar 5, 2008
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    Just a quick thought, the montage was great, same with the last 5-10 minutes before the music started playing. Where it was sort of like a jump into the future, with Marlo, Michael etc. Loved how they used old footage from past seasons in the montage (ie. Poot & Wallace walking down the street from season 1, cops drinking in the parking lot from season 4).

    Great episode, sad to see it end. Will definitely post more soon.

    Nothing changes, everything remains the same.
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  • Avatar of domino87

    domino87

    [3]Mar 5, 2008
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    peekone wrote:
    Nothing changes, everything remains the same.

    They really brought that message home. Throughout the episode they kept using surveillance shots ala S1. They even had new kids knocking out the surveillance camera just like Bodie did back in S1. Even using the first season's theme for the montage, that was a great touch. Must say Clark Johnson did a helluva job.

    Great finale. It was crazy how everything came together at the end, specifically all the political games. So much lying and blackmailing, loved it.

    Oh hell yes, Slim Charles, hell yes. "That was for Joe."

    Clay Davis wasn't in this episode was he?

    Loved the shots of Baltimore right after the first hour. It was like one episode in the first hour then another after that.

    So many parallels at the end there.

    Michael= Omar

    Dukie= Bubbles

    Chris looked like Cutty to me, (glad to see Wee Bey)

    Marlo trying to get out of the game just like Stringer

    Have to watch that again. Can't believe its over..

    Edited on 03/05/2008 3:17am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of SVU17

    SVU17

    [4]Mar 5, 2008
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    how did you see it already?? I'm jonesin for the episode real bad!
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  • Avatar of SVU17

    SVU17

    [5]Mar 5, 2008
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    Nevermind. I've just read pekone's other post. I'll figure a way,...

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  • Avatar of blackclown98

    blackclown98

    [6]Mar 5, 2008
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    Did I miss it or didn't they show what McNulty is doing for a living now?
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  • Avatar of nicmar19422

    nicmar19422

    [7]Mar 5, 2008
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    I never thought I would say these words but the final episode of The Wire left me angry and above all disappointed I have watched it twice now and just can't get to a place where I feel good about it Let me say that I loved The Wire so much so that I declared it to be the best show in the history of television but to have it end like this is just insulting, and in my opinion this episode damages the whole show. I will start this rant by saying that I know this show does not give out happy endings and there is always going to be something that upsets or angers us that is the point. In every other season we were given something to hold on to in season one the citizen murder was avenged and Barksdale went down short term as it might have been in season two the girls in the can were spoken for and the major crimes unit was formed giving us that to look forward to season three gave us Omar's revenge and the police getting some small measure of victory even though it lead to Marlo's rise to power, Finally last year we see major crimes reformed with hope that the 23 bodies in the vacant houses will be dealt with and the knowledge that the boys we met weren't lost forever this year to see each and every character torn down and having to see Marlo get to outright win is too much. Marlo was the one character that the show ever portrayed as a straight villain no redeeming qualities he broke every rule of the street and society and killed people for fun and he makes a huge profit and gets to walk away clean no justice for Prop Joe, Butchie, Omar or anyone else .Even as a moral question it is more interesting if Marlo goes to jail because then at least we would be left with the question of was it worth it? Was catching Marlo who was responsible for the 22 bodies in the vacant as well as untold others worth the deaths of innocent people that the copy cat killed? With this ending that question is easily answered no because Marlo goes free. Next is Daniels who is the straight arrow he followed the rules and never stabbed anyone in the back and still he falls, which brings me to McNulty who sacrificed his career because he just couldn't stand to see people get away with 23 murders because punishing them would cost too much in either money or votes, I am not saying that he was without blame or that his fate was not deserved but for it all to have been for nothing is hard to swallow. Lester is in that same category so I will not rehash it this leaves us with Mike and Doukie both kids claimed by the corner in different ways. The Wire has always been a story about American cities this is what David Simon has always said when asked and what does this final episode tell us about them that is simple there is no hope. Marlo breaks the rules and comes out ahead now beyond the reach of the police or the street, so following the rules whatever they may be is pointless. Templeton Lies and makes up stories and win a prize meant for excellence in journalism so we take that telling the truth is a waste of time. Carcetti who was corrupted within a few months and shows us that getting elected to higher office is more important than helping the people of a city that he is sworn to govern. Clay Davis also gets away to put his hand in someone else's pocket condemning even more people to misery and hopelessness and Valcheck becomes police commissioner a brain dead racist hack who will keep up the tradition of juking stats and pointless street rips that will only worsen crime. So there you have it no victory no hope. Any thoughts that people have to share would be greatly appreciated.
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  • Avatar of shsteve

    shsteve

    [8]Mar 5, 2008
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    Well, Daniels was never straight as an arrow before The Wire. The liquid assests was always in the background and people would exploit any chance they got. Daniels has always tried to do the right thing to make the pros outweigh the con. It's clear throughout every season that he was never going to break free of that one mistake. He blew it early on.

    Carcetti was always corrupt, using people like Burrell and then washing his hands of them. Even from the start of Season 3, it's clear he has no intention of helping anyone, since he's a narcisstic piece of trash who clearly wants to out do everyone who kept him back as a way of point scoring (something that only he actually cares about). You listen to his rants when trying to get support for mayor and he talks more about his peers more than Joe Public.

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    blackclown98

    [9]Mar 5, 2008
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    Marlo lost the most important thing to him - his 'street rep'. At the end the two guys were still talking about Omar as if he was a legend and will continue talking about him. But after only a few month (not sure about the time line) everyone already forgotten about Marlo.

    McNulty, Daniels and Lester paid for going against the norms and accepted guidelines (as did Bunny Colvin). They knew what they were doing and knew they'd have to pay for it.
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  • Avatar of nicmar19422

    nicmar19422

    [10]Mar 5, 2008
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    I do want to say that a freind of mine suggested that I was looking at things wrong that the personal victories are what matter Bubbles finding his redemption, Carver finally becomming good police McNulty being able to put his rage behind him. this is a good point that I thought was worth adding to the discussion
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  • Avatar of nahlij1

    nahlij1

    [11]Mar 5, 2008
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    nicmar19422 wrote:
    I never thought I would say these words but the final episode of The Wire left me angry and above all disappointed I have watched it twice now and just can't get to a place where I feel good about it Let me say that I loved The Wire so much so that I declared it to be the best show in the history of television but to have it end like this is just insulting, and in my opinion this episode damages the whole show. I will start this rant by saying that I know this show does not give out happy endings and there is always going to be something that upsets or angers us that is the point. In every other season we were given something to hold on to in season one the citizen murder was avenged and Barksdale went down short term as it might have been in season two the girls in the can were spoken for and the major crimes unit was formed giving us that to look forward to season three gave us Omar's revenge and the police getting some small measure of victory even though it lead to Marlo's rise to power, Finally last year we see major crimes reformed with hope that the 23 bodies in the vacant houses will be dealt with and the knowledge that the boys we met weren't lost forever this year to see each and every character torn down and having to see Marlo get to outright win is too much. Marlo was the one character that the show ever portrayed as a straight villain no redeeming qualities he broke every rule of the street and society and killed people for fun and he makes a huge profit and gets to walk away clean no justice for Prop Joe, Butchie, Omar or anyone else .Even as a moral question it is more interesting if Marlo goes to jail because then at least we would be left with the question of was it worth it? Was catching Marlo who was responsible for the 22 bodies in the vacant as well as untold others worth the deaths of innocent people that the copy cat killed? With this ending that question is easily answered no because Marlo goes free. Next is Daniels who is the straight arrow he followed the rules and never stabbed anyone in the back and still he falls, which brings me to McNulty who sacrificed his career because he just couldn't stand to see people get away with 23 murders because punishing them would cost too much in either money or votes, I am not saying that he was without blame or that his fate was not deserved but for it all to have been for nothing is hard to swallow. Lester is in that same category so I will not rehash it this leaves us with Mike and Doukie both kids claimed by the corner in different ways. The Wire has always been a story about American cities this is what David Simon has always said when asked and what does this final episode tell us about them that is simple there is no hope. Marlo breaks the rules and comes out ahead now beyond the reach of the police or the street, so following the rules whatever they may be is pointless. Templeton Lies and makes up stories and win a prize meant for excellence in journalism so we take that telling the truth is a waste of time. Carcetti who was corrupted within a few months and shows us that getting elected to higher office is more important than helping the people of a city that he is sworn to govern. Clay Davis also gets away to put his hand in someone else's pocket condemning even more people to misery and hopelessness and Valcheck becomes police commissioner a brain dead racist hack who will keep up the tradition of juking stats and pointless street rips that will only worsen crime. So there you have it no victory no hope. Any thoughts that people have to share would be greatly appreciated.


    Did you see the last episode??? How???
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  • Avatar of nicmar19422

    nicmar19422

    [12]Mar 5, 2008
    • member since: 02/18/08
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    there were links to a download site were the final episode was leaked
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  • Avatar of Monta8

    Monta8

    [13]Mar 5, 2008
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    Marlo tried to get out of the game, but he knew that business sh!t wasn't for him. Streets is home for him. Loved that scene.
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  • Avatar of MyNameIsYogourt

    MyNameIsYogourt

    [14]Mar 5, 2008
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    There's not much to brag about with this last episode. Let's hear this : I love the ending but not the episode. It feels like Simon & Burns didn't gamble a thing on drama to end the best show on TV ever. Politics still rules everything ; a lie is not so much of a lie even if you get caught. People still die. It's not a perfect world. Justice goes with bargaining. etc ... I'm ok with that. but, in terms of drama, it's one of the most boring episodes, all seasons included. The first hour was quite lame (beside the opening sequence, classic The Wire !) and the last half-hour needed to be developped because all the good stuff is there but not much of it. They would have need more time to close on this. As for Daniels and Rhonda, The Michael and Dukie storylines fall short. Valchek commisioner is a joke (though a good one). Sydnor standing for McNulty procedure of breaking the rules with the chain-of-command at the judge's office stands too much for a closed circle type of ending. Marlo on the corner deserves to be point out. "... the life of kings", and any corner is Marlo's throne. The only well developped scene of this episode (along with the opening sequence) happens in the Kavanagh's and shows the eulogy for McNulty departure from the Force, told by the very same sergeant that laugh every time McNulty got in trouble. Great stuff. Tears and laughs at the same time. Beside that I just enjoyed the very last thing McNulty says : "let's go home" a.k.a. this is the world we live in. It's not Paradise or Dreamland. And we got to do with that. The arrested kid (during the "Way Down in the Hole" clip)(is the boy an 9-yeard-old or what ?) is a hell of a testimony to show how sh** can run deep in mankind's minds. Although I'm disappointed by the episode, The Wire remains the best show ever and I'll genuinly miss it ! Many thanks to Simon and Burns ... By the way, Bubbles is doing great !
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  • Avatar of domino87

    domino87

    [15]Mar 5, 2008
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    nicmar19422 wrote:
    I never thought I would say these words but the final episode of The Wire left me angry and above all disappointed I have watched it twice now and just can't get to a place where I feel good about it Let me say that I loved The Wire so much so that I declared it to be the best show in the history of television but to have it end like this is just insulting, and in my opinion this episode damages the whole show.

    Are you saying that the ending was too gloomy/depressing? Thats what I was expecting, I mean this is The Wire. But I thought it could have been so much more worse than it was. Bubbles or Michael could have died, McNulty, Freamon, everyone else could have went to jail. Ronnie could have been fired. The entire case against Marlo's organization could have been thrown out and they all could have walked, not just Marlo. I thought that a lot of the people actually received pretty happy endings compared to what they could have been.

    nicmar19422 wrote:
    this year to see each and every character torn down and having to see Marlo get to outright win is too much.

    He did not outright win by any means. He lost the only thing he ever cared about, the crown. Sure he doesn't go to jail and he keeps all his money, but he lost Chris, Snoop, Monk, Cheese, his whole organization. He say's hes tired of the "gangster shyt" just like Stringer, but as evidenced by the last scene the game is still in him. Omar gets the last laugh as the corner boys know who he is but they dont even recognize Marlo. Maybe Marlo didn't go down in this episode, but he obviously will at some point, no one is bigger then the instituition in which they serve.

    nicmar19422 wrote:
    Next is Daniels who is the straight arrow he followed the rules and never stabbed anyone in the back and still he falls, which brings me to McNulty who sacrificed his career because he just couldn't stand to see people get away with 23 murders because punishing them would cost too much in either money or votes, I am not saying that he was without blame or that his fate was not deserved but for it all to have been for nothing is hard to swallow. Lester is in that same category so I will not rehash it

    Daniels fell because of his own decision. And he wasn't always as straight as an arrow, otherwise Nerese wouldn't have had dirt on him and he wouldn't have been forced to cook the stats. He could have juked the stats and stayed, but he had enough of that shyt so he became a lawyer. Thats almost a happy ending IMO.

    How can you say everything McNulty did was for nothing? It ultimately led to the death of Snoop, who was responsible for most of those bodies, and the incarceration for life of Chris who was also responsible. Not to mention the demise of Cheese and incarceration of Monk. Sure Marlo didn't fall but as I said before, he'll have his time.

    nicmar19422 wrote:
    this leaves us with Mike and Doukie both kids claimed by the corner in different ways. The Wire has always been a story about American cities this is what David Simon has always said when asked and what does this final episode tell us about them that is simple there is no hope.

    The whole point of the The Wire has been that there is no hope if we continue doing things the way they are done now.

    nicmar19422 wrote:
    Marlo breaks the rules and comes out ahead now beyond the reach of the police or the street, so following the rules whatever they may be is pointless. Templeton Lies and makes up stories and win a prize meant for excellence in journalism so we take that telling the truth is a waste of time.Carcetti who was corrupted within a few months and shows us that getting elected to higher office is more important than helping the people of a city that he is sworn to govern. Clay Davis also gets away to put his hand in someone else's pocket condemning even more people to misery and hopelessness and Valcheck becomes police commissioner a brain dead racist hack who will keep up the tradition of juking stats and pointless street rips that will only worsen crime.

    Marlo doesn't deserve to escape clean. Clay Davis neither. Carcetti doesnt' deserve to be Mayor. Templeton didn't deserve to win a pulitzer. Valchek damn sure doesnt deserve to be commisioner. But this is The Wire, "deserve got nuthin' to do with it".

    You think there aren't thousands of 'Carcettis' and 'Davis'' and 'Valcheks' out there doing the same damn thing everyday? The Wire is trying to shed some light on those types of people because that shyt is happening everyday and people are so naive they don't know its going on.

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  • Avatar of domino87

    domino87

    [16]Mar 5, 2008
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    MyNameIsYogourt wrote:
    There's not much to brag about with this last episode. Let's hear this : I love the ending but not the episode. It feels like Simon & Burns didn't gamble a thing on drama to end the best show on TV ever. Politics still rules everything ; a lie is not so much of a lie even if you get caught. People still die. It's not a perfect world. Justice goes with bargaining. etc ... I'm ok with that. but, in terms of drama, it's one of the most boring episodes, all seasons included. The first hour was quite lame (beside the opening sequence, classic The Wire !) and the last half-hour needed to be developped because all the good stuff is there but not much of it. They would have need more time to close on this. As for Daniels and Rhonda, The Michael and Dukie storylines fall short. Valchek commisioner is a joke (though a good one). Sydnor standing for McNulty procedure of breaking the rules with the chain-of-command at the judge's office stands too much for a closed circle type of ending. Marlo on the corner deserves to be point out. "... the life of kings", and any corner is Marlo's throne. The only well developped scene of this episode (along with the opening sequence) happens in the Kavanagh's and shows the eulogy for McNulty departure from the Force, told by the very same sergeant that laugh every time McNulty got in trouble. Great stuff. Tears and laughs at the same time. Beside that I just enjoyed the very last thing McNulty says : "let's go home" a.k.a. this is the world we live in. It's not Paradise or Dreamland. And we got to do with that. The arrested kid (during the "Way Down in the Hole" clip)(is the boy an 9-yeard-old or what ?) is a hell of a testimony to show how sh** can run deep in mankind's minds. Although I'm disappointed by the episode, The Wire remains the best show ever and I'll genuinly miss it ! Many thanks to Simon and Burns ... By the way, Bubbles is doing great !

    First hour was lame? All the shyt that has been happening this entire season just hits the fan. So much shyt was up in the air at this point and I had no idea how it was all going to play out. Drama at it's finest IMO, far from boring and lame. Maybe you didn't like all the lying, blackmailing, dark humor like I did, it could just be personal opinion I suppose.

    Agreed the last half hour was rushed and it felt different than other episodes. Michael turning into Omar(that scene was a little over the top with the parallel) and Bubbles turning into Sherrod/Bubbles was very underdeveloped, but I don't really have any gripes with those scenes because they let us know how those characters turned out.

    I was pleased with this episode, although it was far from the greatest. I just enjoyed how they wrapped everything up and at the same time the seeds of the future were planted throughout baltimore.

    Edited on 03/05/2008 8:33pm
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  • Avatar of AG19

    AG19

    [17]Mar 5, 2008
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    I absolutely loved this episode. I thought this season was pretty lackluster, but these last few episodes have absolutely blown me away.

    Only the people involved with The Wire could make the Omar-Mike connection not some corny like I thought it would be. Only the people involved with The Wire could have Marlo go out in the way none of us expected. Only the people involved with The Wire could leave us with a lasting image of the two biggest killers and most cold blooded enforcers chilling. Only the people involved with The Wire could break our heart with Dukie.

    It was bomb as hell.

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  • Avatar of domino87

    domino87

    [18]Mar 5, 2008
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    What, you liked it? Now we have nothing to debate over! Hah, just playin, glad you enjoyed it. Over at some other forum's and here there seem to be a lot of people displeased. But has there ever been a series finale which was completely satisfying? Series finale's have been historically highly critiqued(Seinfeld, The Sopranos being the obvious ones).We got to say goodbye to everybody we've come to care about over 6 years. That's not too common with a TV show.
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    AG19

    [19]Mar 5, 2008
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    I thought The Sopranos finale was awful. Not because the show was ending, but just because it sucked. I'd much rather have the 'safe' and 'boring' info on how everybody turns out rather than having Marlo, Mike, and McNulty all enter a room and have it all go to black.
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    nicmar19422

    [20]Mar 5, 2008
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    domino87 wrote:
    What, you liked it? Now we have nothing to debate over! Hah, just playin, glad you enjoyed it. Over at some other forum's and here there seem to be a lot of people displeased. But has there ever been a series finale which was completely satisfying? Series finale's have been historically highly critiqued(Seinfeld, The Sopranos being the obvious ones).We got to say goodbye to everybody we've come to care about over 6 years. That's not too common with a TV show.

    I agree debate is what makes fourms like this entertaining. as to my earier post yes I know that there are courpt politicions and Gangsters who commit murder every day I am from Philly were we just clocked the highest murder rate in the country so none of this is news to me I have come around on many of the things that bothered me before I don't know if I was angry that the series ended on an episode that I did not consider not one of it's best. I was prepared for many of the outcomes in the final episode the Marlo story line still bothers me because I still think he got to win yes his street rep and crown were gone but 10 mil and the fact that he looked happy enough when he licked the blood and his yeaaaaah seemes to say that he will return to the street soon enough. Also theloss of Chris and Snoop are not felt enough to weaken his position with the co-op he must still had enough muscle to enforce this buy out because other wise why not just kill him it's not like the Greek are going to close shop I don't think that his going to jail would have saved Baltimore or meant anything at all in the long run but I still say that it makes for a more intresting moral question with him in jail.What is putting someone like him away worth 2 innocent lived that the copycat took instead this is resolved. Templeton and his pulitzer does show effectivly enough that people want to be told what to think and what they should be angry instead of having all the facts and deciding for themselves . Also the Valcheck thing is a good commentary on the way police departments are handled I am currently going to school in Orlando were they just had a mandate that all undercoer DEU detectives will be pulled for street work. All in all upon my last viewing I take back most of what I said and I still consider this to be one of the all time great show after the last episode show we should meet back here also if any one has the lyrics to the song played at the detectives wake that might be intresting as well

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