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CBS (ended 1967)

DOROTHY KILGALLEN Forum

  • Avatar of woundedwindow

    woundedwindow

    [121]Apr 16, 2008
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    This may be totally off topic, but this has been driving me nuts since the last time they started rerunning the series, Dorothy's nose looks completely different from 1950-1965, did she have a nose job or something? I know it's a horrible question, but I've decided to ask it anyway.
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  • Avatar of astorino

    astorino

    [122]Apr 17, 2008
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    If her nose looks different to you, it may be due to a number of possible reasons, such as:

    • She gained quite a bit of weight during that time period.
    • It might be the distortion of the kinescope.
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  • Avatar of astorino

    astorino

    [123]Apr 17, 2008
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    puzzlingpixie wrote:
    I've found that some people refer to Dorothy, as Dolly Mae

    I think it was a childhood nickname.

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    astorino

    [124]Apr 17, 2008
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    Dorothy is called "Dolly Mae" in this vintage 1961 Time article below.

    Suzanne

    ----------------------------------------------

    Time Magazine article dated Friday, Nov. 24, 1961

    Lambsy & Chopsy

    (No specific author credited)

    Dorothy Kilgallen is forever questioning but is seldom questioned. Last week, however, television's Mike Wallace sat her down on his P.M. East show and, with all the care of a shoeless man in a room with a rattlesnake, conducted an interview with the sophisticated lady whose friends, it developed, call her Dolly Mae.

    With Husband Richard Kollmar in tow -- he is a restaurateur, Broadway producer and "discoverer of new talent" -- Kilgallen perched on Wallace's couch and primly soaked up the flattery. She calls her husband Chopsy and he calls her Lambsy, she revealed. "We don't have separate bedrooms," she said. "We do have separate bathrooms -- after all." He said he would like her to give up What's My Line?, her New York Journal-American column, and all that jazz and write "The Great American Novel." In her closet there are 138 pairs of shoes. Why? "You have to have a pair to go with every dress." Wallace then wanted to know how many furs she has. "Oh," said Dolly Mae, "I've never really counted them."

    Wallace asked her about Jack Paar. "Sad creature," said Kilgallen. Wallace asked her about Frank Sinatra. "We were friends once, but we had a falling out," said Kilgallen. "Falling out?" wondered Wallace, swiftly adding: "If it's none of my business, just say so, and I'll go on to the next one." But quietly, and with eyes demurely on the floor, Kilgallen told her story. She had not been able to understand why Frankie suddenly became distant and unfriendly. She asked a friend of Sinatra. "You see," said the friend, "Frank just doesn't like anybody to say no." Kilgallen looked steadily at Wallace and finished: "You take it from there."

    "Bye, bye," said Kilgallen to Wallace as the hour ended. "It was fun, like."

    The end.

    Edited on 04/21/2008 5:13am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of W-B

    W-B

    [125]Apr 18, 2008
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    astorino wrote:
    If her nose looks different to you, it may be due to a number of possible reasons, such as:
    • She gained quite a bit of weight during that time period.
    • It might be the distortion of the kinescope.

I see other possibilities besides those you mentioned, including but not limited to the lighting in the studio, plus the fact that her hairdo (and, in 1956-57, her hair color) changed over the years.
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  • Avatar of stopettearoma

    stopettearoma

    [126]Apr 18, 2008
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    W-B wrote:
    astorino wrote:
    If her nose looks different to you, it may be due to a number of possible reasons, such as: She gained quite a bit of weight during that time period. It might be the distortion of the kinescope.

    I see other possibilities besides those you mentioned, including but not limited to the lighting in the studio, plus the fact that her hairdo (and, in 1956-57, her hair color) changed over the years.

    Another possibility, which is supported by a source, has to do with the fabric that the cameramen started putting over their lenses whenever they got close - ups of Dorothy and Arlene. When they started doing this is unclear, but the source is good: Franklin Heller's 1987 video interview that you can see at the Paley Center for Media. It's hard to doubt him because he said little, if anything, that contradicts what Fates said in his book or what Mark Goodson said on Entertainment Tonight and other nostalgic interviews. Heller got into topics that the others never got near, such as Ethel Barrymore's ability to cover up her frailty, caused by emphysema, during her few minutes as a mystery guest. Immediately after shaking the last panelist's hand she staggered out of camera range and collapsed. Fates and Goodson never provided any details about Barrymore -- talent, health, how Bob Bach booked her (her agent was in the studio) or anything else.

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  • Avatar of silverscreen789

    silverscreen789

    [127]Apr 19, 2008
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    Looks like Dorothy borrowed one of Arlene's crowns! She had a beautiful dress for the coronation. Wow.
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  • Avatar of jimarnone

    jimarnone

    [128]Apr 20, 2008
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    Just happened upon a NYC Public Library repository of Dorothy Kilgallen's Papers and Scrapbooks (1930-1965) that is available for viewing only. If you live in the NYC area, you might like to take a look:

    URL: http://www.nypl.org/research/manuscripts/the/thekilgalle.xml

    Descriptive Summary

    Title: Dorothy Kilgallen Papers and Scrapbooks, 1930-1965

    Clas smark:
    *T-Mss 1966-001

    Repository: The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts. Billy Rose Theatre Division.

    Languages Represented: English



    Administrative Information

    Access: Collection is open to the public. Photocopying prohibited. Advance notice may be required.

    Preferred Citation: Dorothy Kilgallen Papers and Scrapbooks, *T-Mss 1966-001, Billy Rose Theatre Division, The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts.

    Processing Information: Materials were primarily scrapbooks and included 43 volumes of Ms. Kilgallen's newspaper columns from The Journal-American. These were discarded in 1983 since The Journal-American is available on microfilm. The remaining portion of the collection was fully processed in 1992. One oversized photograph of Dorothy Kilgallen's graduation cla ss from Erasmus Hall High School in Brooklyn, New York was removed for conservation and separate oversized storage.

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  • Avatar of puzzlingpixie

    puzzlingpixie

    [129]Apr 20, 2008
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    astorino wrote:
    Dorothy is called "Dolly Mae" in this vintage 1961 Time article below. Suzanne

    Wow, thank you so much. It seems like that article just cut off though, is there more?

    stopettearoma wrote:
    Another possibility, which is supported by a source, has to do with the fabric that the cameramen started putting over their lenses whenever they got close - ups of Dorothy and Arlene.

    Why did they put fabric over the lenses?

    silverscreen789 wrote:
    Looks like Dorothy borrowed one of Arlene's crowns! She had a beautiful dress for the coronation. Wow.

    That's what I thought too (about both the dress and the crown). I called my mom in to look at the dress and the 14,000 pearls (which greatly impressed me), but my mom said that the pearls could just be fake (which would still have cost a lot in hand stitching), but I was wondering, does anyone know if the pearls were real or how much her gown cost?

    Edited on 04/21/2008 5:11am
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  • Avatar of catnipygoodnss

    catnipygoodnss

    [130]Apr 20, 2008
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    puzzlingpixie wrote:
    Why did they put fabric over the lenses?
    By putting fabric or "gauze" over the lens softened the features. this was helpful especially if one was not looking their best or to diminish wrinkles. This was probably useful for Dorothy who at times looked like she was nursing a huge hangover or under the influence. For Arlene it was probably more about vanity and not looking older.
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  • Avatar of astorino

    astorino

    [131]Apr 21, 2008
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    puzzlingpixie wrote:
    Wow, thank you so much. It seems like that article just cut off though, is there more?

    I placed the actual link in the article above. Looks like that was the full article unless the web page is cutting it off?

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  • Avatar of puzzlingpixie

    puzzlingpixie

    [132]Apr 21, 2008
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    No, I can see the full article, I guess I just hoped and supposed it might be longer. Thanks.

    Edited on 04/23/2008 3:49am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of stopettearoma

    stopettearoma

    [133]Apr 21, 2008
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    Franklin Heller talked about the crew's use of the fabric over the lenses, but he never said it had anything to do with Dorothy's personal problems or Arlene's vanity. In fact, Heller volunteered few details. He said the fabric made the women look better, but that's about it. Among the details he withheld, which would be nice to know, are:

    Did they ever use it for other female panelists such as Margaret Truman, Phyllis Newman or Kitty Carlisle?

    Did they start using it for Dorothy and Arlene in 1950? If not, when?

    Dorothy appeared on live, or almost live, TV shows that were produced by other companies besides Goodson Todman. You can see a DVD of her on Person To Person, which wasn't directed by Franklin Heller, and on the Canadian series Front Page Challenge, which wasn't, either. (Canadian television aired it on a delay of 15-20 minutes in 1964 for whatever reason that is unclear.) She looks better and seems happier and friendlier on them than on any episode of What's My Line?. The pressure of living up to the role Goodson Todman assigned Dorothy, that of the "pain in the ass," (Franklin Heller's words), might have affected her looks and her demeanor on every episode of Line. Even in news footage of journalists questioning Melvin Belli during a recess in the Jack Ruby murder trial, Dorothy looks better and more at ease than on a game show.

    Edited on 04/24/2008 5:35pm
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  • Avatar of stopettearoma

    stopettearoma

    [134]Apr 21, 2008
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    The TV talk show that Time was describing was titled PM East PM West. Ninety-nine percent of the episodes are gone, including all the sound and picture of the one with Dorothy and Dick. Barbra Streisand sang and tried to be funny / obnoxious on many of the episodes. Mike Wallace supposedly called her "our resident kook," but we'll never know because all the video of her is gone. One of her gay fans preserved less than 20 minutes of sound with a reel-to-reel tape recorder. You hear her refer to Zen Buddhism, but the rest of it is pretty dull, and she never sings. This was 1961 or early 1962 when she was 19 years old.

    We'll never know exactly what Dorothy or Dick said on the air with Wallace. There are two clues that the above Time article was strongly biased against Dorothy.

    #1 -- The TV columnist for the Pittsburgh Post Gazette watched an Ampex videotape of the broadcast at least a day before it aired, and he summarized it in the November 15, 1961 edition of the paper. He had the scoop because PM East PM West was produced by Westinghouse Broadcasting, which was then (and is now?) headquartered in the Pittsburgh area. I don't have a Xerox of the Post Gazette summary of the broadcast handy, but I read it. I can tell you it's very different from the Time summary. It says nothing about Dorothy tap-dancing around a sexual pass from Frank Sinatra. It focuses on what she said about public business. She made several astute comments about the Rat Pack making Sammy Davis Jr. a fifth wheel.

    #2 - Henry Luce, the founder of Time, was very much alive in 1961 (when the Time writer watched the PM East PM West broadcast and used it against Dorothy) and he remained influential in the magazine. He had been a notorious rival of William Randolph Hearst in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. Old Man Hearst was dead for ten years as of 1961, but his newspapers, including the New York Journal American, lasted for many years after that. The rivalry continued, and Time regularly bashed Dorothy and her colleagues Bob Considine, Walter Winchell, Louella Parsons and Bill Slocum. The staff of Time openly admitted back then that it was interested in scandal. So did the Hearst Corporation. They were competitors.

    ___________________________________

    If you live in the Pittsburgh area you can find the less biased summary of Dorothy and Dick talking to Mike Wallace in the November 15, 1961 edition of the Post Gazette. If you live there you might have heard stories of an underground mine (Iron Mountain or something?) where Westinghouse stored old Ampex videotapes, but don't expect to find PM East PM West. If the many Ampex tapes of Streisand are all gone, then all the episodes are gone. The show lasted barely a year. Somebody could have made millions selling DVD's of Streisand dancing The Twist, which Wallace's co-host Joyce Davidson later recalled her doing. Somebody would have done this several years ago when the people who own the Dick Cavett Show started selling DVD's of John Lennon, Janis Joplin and Jimi Hendrix ad-libbing on various topics. People all over the world will pay a lot of money to see Barbra acting without a script when she's 19, so we know they'll never see it. Somebody already would have found it and sold it. She did PM East PM West many times, so therefore it's all gone except for one broadcast at the UCLA Film & Television Archive. That one features Wallace talking to Ed Wynn, Ethel Griffies and other actors who were elderly in 1962, so the demand for it is low.

    Westinghouse launched the Mike Douglas Show during the same year as PM East PM West. Douglas brought Dorothy Dandridge on his show in 1963. Dandridge talked on the show about her mentally handicapped daughter, but all the audio and video were wiped by Westinghouse. A newspaper wire service of her comments survives, but people assume she was too emotionally fragile and devastated by her daughter's ordeal to talk about it publicly. Westinghouse royally screwed her for posterity. The company was notoriously stingy. Mike Douglas castigated them in later years for having wiped all five episodes on which Judy Garland was the co-host.

    Edited on 04/23/2008 3:54am
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  • Avatar of W-B

    W-B

    [135]Apr 21, 2008
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    In New York, PM East/PM West, from my recollection, aired on WNEW-TV (Ch. 5) - despite it being owned at the time by what was then called Metropolitan Broadcasting, Division of Metromedia, Inc., and not Westinghouse. (WNEW did air some "Group W" shows over the years, including the 1965-69 Merv Griffin Show and the 1969-72 David Frost Show.) So if that interview aired in New York, viewers would have seen it on Channel 5.
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  • Avatar of stopettearoma

    stopettearoma

    [136]Apr 21, 2008
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    W-B wrote:
    In New York, PM East/PM West, from my recollection, aired on WNEW-TV (Ch. 5) - despite it being owned at the time by what was then called Metropolitan Broadcasting, Division of Metromedia, Inc., and not Westinghouse. (WNEW did air some "Group W" shows over the years, including the 1965-69 Merv Griffin Show and the 1969-72 David Frost Show.) So if that interview aired in New York, viewers would have seen it on Channel 5.

    That's right. Metromedia also owned WTTG Channel 5 in Washington, DC, which also aired PM East PM West every night. The Washington Post forewarned its readers on November 15, 1961 that that night's broadcast would have Mike Wallace's long interview with Dorothy and Dick. The Post included a photo of the trio seated on a couch. Wallace is talking into a regular mike that hangs from a pole, not a body mike. That's the only image from the broadcast that exists. The Post revealed nothing about what Kilgallen was recorded saying, though the Pittsburgh Post Gazette revealed some of it.

    The series was produced by Westinghouse Broadcasting, which apparently had a deal with WNEW and WTTG for them to broadcast it five nights a week. At least one biography of Mike Wallace says Westinghouse produced it. So does a biography of Barbra Streisand published in the United Kingdom in 1975. Several other cities ran the series, too. Pittsburgh, which had the headquarters of Westinghouse, telecast it. The Post Gazette TV columnist was able to preview broadcasts for his readers because Westinghouse easily could screen the Ampex videotapes for him. Other cities that broadcast PM East PM West included Cleveland, Baltimore and San Francisco. The PM West segment of the show originated from San Francisco. Of course, many regions of the United States missed it, especially the Deep South. Atlanta missed it. That gave Time magazine a good scoop. It described a TV broadcast that millions of its readers could not possibly watch, though they were much more likely to have access to a CBS affiliate that gave them Dorothy Kilgallen for 27 minutes each week. (So the Time piece got their attention, and the magazine could slant it.) CBS went almost everywhere in the United States in 1961, but late-night syndication didn't.

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    puzzlingpixie

    [137]Apr 21, 2008
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    stopettearoma wrote:
    The pressure of living up to the role Goodson Todman assigned Dorothy, that of the "pain in the ass," (Franklin Heller's words), might have affected her looks and her demeanor on every episode of Line. Even in news footage of journalists questioning Melvin Belli during a recess in the Jack Ruby murder trial, Dorothy looks better and more at ease than on a game show.


    Was Dorothy told to act a certain way for WML? I know there was a certain air of formality for the show, but I can't honestly see them telling Dorothy to act a certain way so people wouldn't like her.
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    silverscreen789

    [138]Apr 22, 2008
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    I've never understood the usual description of Dorothy as a hard--s. She took the game very seriously and was seemingly an extremely intelligent person, but she seemed no less charming or friendly than the others to me. Granted Arlene flirted a good bit more, but I don't see one as the 'good guy' and the other as the 'baddie'. They were both wonderful.
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    puzzlingpixie

    [139]Apr 22, 2008
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    I know! I always loved Dorothy, and I can't understand why some people don't. However, Dorothy's reputation came more from her journalistic career than from her WML? appearances. However, a lot of people, it seems, were biased against her or took her quotes out of context simply because she was the woman "everyone loved to hate."
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    marciasimonson

    [140]Apr 23, 2008
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    I like Dorothy too--better actually than Arlene. I like Arlene and have nothing against her, but I think Dorothy brings a bit more ginger to the proceedings, and I like her competitiveness. I also often find her very charming--particularly her girlish giggle. When she's absent from the show, I find I miss her more than I miss Arlene when she's absent.

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