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  • Avatar of SkinsFan2189

    SkinsFan2189

    [81]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/01/08
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    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    Buyrates do not have anything to do with who is better. Punk is a better wrestler than Cena and Ryback. He is by far a better talker than both of them. Mass appeal? Did you hear the crowd tonight? Loud boos for Cena, Loud cheers for Punk, in between for Ryback. Punk, Ambrose, and Rollins are all better than both Cena and Ryback.

    Edited on 11/18/2012 8:11pm
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  • Avatar of JandSman

    JandSman

    [82]Nov 18, 2012
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    Deadnight-Majin wrote:

    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    Dude...Punk headlined Hell In A Cell.

    And your point being, it wasn't Punk who sold PPV's it was Ryback, because people wanted to see him win the title. Punk hasn't gotten the PPV's buy rates up at all since being champion, all the big buyrates in the past year are really because of The Rock, Cena, Lesnar, HHH, and Ryback (for his one PPV).
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  • Avatar of Randyspeeps

    Randyspeeps

    [83]Nov 18, 2012
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    Deadnight-Majin wrote:


    Tyler Black beating Austin Aries for the ROH world title:



    I think it's funny you refuse to refer to them by their WWE name.

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  • Avatar of goldenagenick24

    goldenagenick24

    [84]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/05/07
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    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    I don't think that's Punk's fault. He is a good wrestler, a good talker, and has an interesting look. Everything else about him is left to creative. Creative has made such a divide in the roster that they can't make new stars because people like Cena, Sheamus, and Ryback cannot be pinned clean because they're built up as unstoppable. That's why they have to rely on part time stars like Lesnar and Rock because no man on the roster can win clean.



    Let this stable form and see how it works. These guys all have skill. With lack of a great stable since Evolution I think we're due. CM Punk's year long reign has been so dynamic that i've enjoyed it. We've seen turns, new stars pushed (Ryback, Maddox, and now these three), and Match of the Year candidates with Bryan and Cena. This is the best run of Punk's career, I don't see how you'd want to revert 5 years back to give a guy like Cena the strap when he clearly doesn't need it to get over.

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  • Avatar of Randyspeeps

    Randyspeeps

    [85]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 06/02/07
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    JandSman wrote:
    Deadnight-Majin wrote:

    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    Dude...Punk headlined Hell In A Cell.

    And your point being, it wasn't Punk who sold PPV's it was Ryback, because people wanted to see him win the title. Punk hasn't gotten the PPV's buy rates up at all since being champion, all the big buyrates in the past year are really because of The Rock, Cena, Lesnar, HHH, and Ryback (for his one PPV).
    Um....In that case, I would like to argue that it was Randy Orton who got buyrates up for that PPV. His match against Del Rio was brewing for months...
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  • Avatar of goldenagenick24

    goldenagenick24

    [86]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/05/07
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    Randyspeeps wrote:


    Deadnight-Majin wrote:


    Tyler Black beating Austin Aries for the ROH world title:



    I think it's funny you refuse to refer to them by their WWE name.


    Do you say Matt Sydal as well? I have a friend that does the same thing with the indy guys haha. WWE is smart for licensing names, though.

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  • Avatar of Deadnight-Majin

    Deadnight-Majin

    [87]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 04/18/08
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    Moxley/Ambrose's promo on Daniel Bryan, hyping their DGUSA match. Bryan was actually WWE US champion at the time of his last two DGUSA matches, he was already booked for them when he re-signed with WWE (after getting fired), I thought it was cool of WWE to still let him do them.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKlz261mL00


    Dragon Gate USA is a very interesting fed to follow. While it started mainly as a showcase of Dragon Gate wrestling in America, it has sort of evolved into a developmental territory for both Dragon Gate in Japan and WWE. Some DG guys do still come over for the US shows, but there's not as much focus on them now, mainly the homegrown folks.

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  • Avatar of Randyspeeps

    Randyspeeps

    [88]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 06/02/07
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    Majin do you have all these videos favorited?
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  • Avatar of JandSman

    JandSman

    [89]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 04/26/07
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    • rank: Whammy!
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    SkinsFan2189 wrote:

    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    Buyrates do not have anything to do with who is better. Punk is a better wrestler than Cena and Ryback. He is by far a better talker than both of them. Mass appeal? Did you hear the crowd tonight? Loud boos for Cena, Loud cheers for Punk, in between for Ryback. Punk, Ambrose, and Rollins are all better than both Cena and Ryback.

    Who ever said, that buyrates make someone better because I never did, Punk is a better wrestler then Cena and Ryback, I can give you that. But I won't be willing to give you that he is a better talk then Cena, because when given the opportunity to be cut loose, Cena can talk with the best of them. And so what if one crowd cheers for a few guys, it's all about the money, and when the day comes when it's Cena vs Ryback or Punk vs Ryback and who sells the most PPV's, I bet you that it will be Cena vs Ryback, and that's all that really matters from a business standpoint. And I honestly think that Cena can hold his own with a lot of the indy guys like Ambrose and Rollins. He can wrestle great 30 to 40 minute matches as we have seen in the past, and I bet if he wanted to be a great indy wrestler, he could probably do it.
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  • Avatar of Deadnight-Majin

    Deadnight-Majin

    [90]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 04/18/08
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    goldenagenick24 wrote:


    Randyspeeps wrote:


    Deadnight-Majin wrote:


    Tyler Black beating Austin Aries for the ROH world title:



    I think it's funny you refuse to refer to them by their WWE name.


    Do you say Matt Sydal as well? I have a friend that does the same thing with the indy guys haha. WWE is smart for licensing names, though.


    I can't help it! Ambrose will always be Mox to me. I have recently started calling Danielson by his WWE name though, maybe I'll sell out with the others eventually.


    I don't say Sydal because I got into him as Evan Bourne, he left Dragon Gate before I was a hardcore follower.


    On a related note, my man PAC recently got his WWE name; Adrian Neville. I'm definitely never calling him anything other than PAC. Has to be in upper case too.

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  • Avatar of JandSman

    JandSman

    [91]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 04/26/07
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    goldenagenick24 wrote:

    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    I don't think that's Punk's fault. He is a good wrestler, a good talker, and has an interesting look. Everything else about him is left to creative. Creative has made such a divide in the roster that they can't make new stars because people like Cena, Sheamus, and Ryback cannot be pinned clean because they're built up as unstoppable. That's why they have to rely on part time stars like Lesnar and Rock because no man on the roster can win clean.



    Let this stable form and see how it works. These guys all have skill. With lack of a great stable since Evolution I think we're due. CM Punk's year long reign has been so dynamic that i've enjoyed it. We've seen turns, new stars pushed (Ryback, Maddox, and now these three), and Match of the Year candidates with Bryan and Cena. This is the best run of Punk's career, I don't see how you'd want to revert 5 years back to give a guy like Cena the strap when he clearly doesn't need it to get over.

    I'm fine with letting this stable play out, but I wouldn't have mind seeing Ryback's momentum really get rolling or teasing the Cena vs Rock II, then pulling it back to Punk vs Rock, so then Cena vs Rock II can get so more hype (not that it needs it, but still the more awareness the better).
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  • Avatar of goldenagenick24

    goldenagenick24

    [92]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/05/07
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    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:


    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    Buyrates do not have anything to do with who is better. Punk is a better wrestler than Cena and Ryback. He is by far a better talker than both of them. Mass appeal? Did you hear the crowd tonight? Loud boos for Cena, Loud cheers for Punk, in between for Ryback. Punk, Ambrose, and Rollins are all better than both Cena and Ryback.


    Who ever said, that buyrates make someone better because I never did, Punk is a better wrestler then Cena and Ryback, I can give you that. But I won't be willing to give you that he is a better talk then Cena, because when given the opportunity to be cut loose, Cena can talk with the best of them. And so what if one crowd cheers for a few guys, it's all about the money, and when the day comes when it's Cena vs Ryback or Punk vs Ryback and who sells the most PPV's, I bet you that it will be Cena vs Ryback, and that's all that really matters from a business standpoint. And I honestly think that Cena can hold his own with a lot of the indy guys like Ambrose and Rollins. He can wrestle great 30 to 40 minute matches as we have seen in the past, and I bet if he wanted to be a great indy wrestler, he could probably do it.
    You sound like Vince Russo...

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  • Avatar of SkinsFan2189

    SkinsFan2189

    [93]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/01/08
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    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:

    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    Buyrates do not have anything to do with who is better. Punk is a better wrestler than Cena and Ryback. He is by far a better talker than both of them. Mass appeal? Did you hear the crowd tonight? Loud boos for Cena, Loud cheers for Punk, in between for Ryback. Punk, Ambrose, and Rollins are all better than both Cena and Ryback.

    Who ever said, that buyrates make someone better because I never did, Punk is a better wrestler then Cena and Ryback, I can give you that. But I won't be willing to give you that he is a better talk then Cena, because when given the opportunity to be cut loose, Cena can talk with the best of them. And so what if one crowd cheers for a few guys, it's all about the money, and when the day comes when it's Cena vs Ryback or Punk vs Ryback and who sells the most PPV's, I bet you that it will be Cena vs Ryback, and that's all that really matters from a business standpoint. And I honestly think that Cena can hold his own with a lot of the indy guys like Ambrose and Rollins. He can wrestle great 30 to 40 minute matches as we have seen in the past, and I bet if he wanted to be a great indy wrestler, he could probably do it.
    Great 30 to 40 minute matches? Debatable. If you've seen one of Cena's long matches, you've seen them all. Same repetitive moves, and a lot of laying on his ass. Cena is a better talker? That makes me think back to the Cena vs Nexus feud where Cena cut the same promo 30 times, and every time it was still uninteresting. To me, buyrates mean nothing. I've watched nearly every PPV the last couple of years through streams. I'm sure there are a lot of other people who do the same. It's just Cena's fans aren't old enough be online after 8.
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  • Avatar of goldenagenick24

    goldenagenick24

    [94]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 11/05/07
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    JandSman wrote:
    goldenagenick24 wrote:


    JandSman wrote:
    SkinsFan2189 wrote:
    JandSman wrote:


    I really just wanted Ryback or Cena to win the titles, can't they just let Orton, Cena, and Ryback run Raw, while the ex-Independent wrestlers run Smackdown is that so much to ask for.


    That would be terrible. CM Punk is the best in the world. He deserves to be the top guy on the A show. Also, Ambrose, Rollins, and Reigns could all wrestle circles around John Cena.
    Punk being the best in the world is debatable, he may appeal to some, but if you want to look at some of the numbers, his mass appeal isn't quite at the level of Cena's or Ryback's (if the rumors are true regarding the Hell in a Cell PPV buyrate).
    I don't think that's Punk's fault. He is a good wrestler, a good talker, and has an interesting look. Everything else about him is left to creative. Creative has made such a divide in the roster that they can't make new stars because people like Cena, Sheamus, and Ryback cannot be pinned clean because they're built up as unstoppable. That's why they have to rely on part time stars like Lesnar and Rock because no man on the roster can win clean.



    Let this stable form and see how it works. These guys all have skill. With lack of a great stable since Evolution I think we're due. CM Punk's year long reign has been so dynamic that i've enjoyed it. We've seen turns, new stars pushed (Ryback, Maddox, and now these three), and Match of the Year candidates with Bryan and Cena. This is the best run of Punk's career, I don't see how you'd want to revert 5 years back to give a guy like Cena the strap when he clearly doesn't need it to get over.


    I'm fine with letting this stable play out, but I wouldn't have mind seeing Ryback's momentum really get rolling or teasing the Cena vs Rock II, then pulling it back to Punk vs Rock, so then Cena vs Rock II can get so more hype (not that it needs it, but still the more awareness the better).
    If they're doing Cena vs Rock II it seems pretty silly to bill it last year as "Once In A Lifetime"...

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  • Avatar of Deadnight-Majin

    Deadnight-Majin

    [95]Nov 18, 2012
    • member since: 04/18/08
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    Randyspeeps wrote:
    Majin do you have all these videos favorited?
    Haha no, I just remember all of Moxley's DGUSA promos and that they're all on their Youtube channel. I recall Black's pivotal moments and my searches have been successful.


    Tyler Black's controversial ROH debut, in the infamous Age Of The Fall angle. It's very violent, one of the Briscoes ends up suspended from the rafters dripping blood onto Jimmy Jacobs' coat, which he never washed off (which I know since he wore it to a hardcore match he had in DGUSA years later, which was coincidentally against Moxley).


    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5nmfb_age-of-the-fall_sport?search_algo=2#.UKmz9XZWNR0

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  • Avatar of JandSman

    JandSman

    [96]Nov 18, 2012
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    @Skinsfan, well then why should WWE market towards the fans who steal their shows, shouldn't they market their programming to the people who actually buy the product, and not to the people who steal it? Because from a business standpoint, that's just an easy way to lose money.

    @Nick, if you think that WWE shouldn't be about making a profit at the end of the day, then you shouldn't criticize their decisions, because if they listened to that policy, they would go out of business. And yes I will agree that the headline of "Once In A Lifetime" was silly, because it seems clear to me that they will do a rematch.
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  • Avatar of Deadnight-Majin

    Deadnight-Majin

    [97]Nov 18, 2012
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    Buyrates are nigh on irrelevant (in regards to who people are interested in) in this age of internet streaming. I know many people who watch WWE, and none that actually pay for the shows outside of Wrestlemania (and even then most still stream it). Hell, I genuinely know more people who pay for indy shows, the indy fans usually buy the IPPVs or dvds to support the promotions rather than pirating them.

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  • Avatar of Randyspeeps

    Randyspeeps

    [98]Nov 18, 2012
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    For everyone who has been watching the WWE for at least...1 month, you know the company is all about the rematch. Rock v. Cena is inevitable, despite them promoting the Once in a Lifetime tagline.
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  • Avatar of goldenagenick24

    goldenagenick24

    [99]Nov 18, 2012
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    Randyspeeps wrote:
    For everyone who has been watching the WWE for at least...1 month, you know the company is all about the rematch. Rock v. Cena is inevitable, despite them promoting the Once in a Lifetime tagline.
    So pointless though. Cena doesn't need it. Just like HHH doesn't need to face Lesnar. BOTH of these matches will just be so that HHH and Cena can pat themselves on the back.

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  • Avatar of JandSman

    JandSman

    [100]Nov 18, 2012
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    goldenagenick24 wrote:

    Randyspeeps wrote:
    For everyone who has been watching the WWE for at least...1 month, you know the company is all about the rematch. Rock v. Cena is inevitable, despite them promoting the Once in a Lifetime tagline.
    So pointless though. Cena doesn't need it. Just like HHH doesn't need to face Lesnar. BOTH of these matches will just be so that HHH and Cena can pat themselves on the back.

    Cena probably should have beaten Rock at WM 28, and Punk probably shouldn't lose to Rock at Royal Rumble, I can understand Lesnar beating HHH, but Cena should get his win back against Rock, and Punk probably should beat Rock. But knowing how much WWE loves The Rock, I doubt that will happen for Punk, but WWE may give Cena his win back.
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