Shippers are a large element in the make-up of television fandom. Which is perfectly natural, considering most shows on TV right now, whether they be drama, comedy, sci-fi or even cartoons, include some element of romance.

Shippers have become a force louder even than most sports fans. They take to the internet and let their feelings be known when a TV show (heaven forbid), puts the lead together with the WRONG PERSON.

I get it, guys. Getting emotionally invested in the lives of the characters is pretty much the point of TV. If a show doesn’t have a passionate fanbase, they’re doing it wrong.

I’ve seen the term “one true pair” flying around the internet, which implies that the two people in question are essentially the “endgame”. We’ve seen it time and again, where any and all relationships the two leads have, are all just a warm-up for the epic romance brewing. The suspenseful wait makes it all the more satisfying when the music swells and they realize that, hey wait a second, they love each other! Jim and Pam, Angela and Tony, Lois and Clark, Luke and Lorelai, Kermit and Miss Piggy… you see what I mean.

But what happens when the intended “one true pair” falls flat? What if, what began as something promising, turns into one giant eye-roll, and the audience craves something different? Should the producers go against what they initially planned and listen to their audience?

dawson and joey.jpg

This, folks, is what I like to call the “Dawson Syndrome.” When Dawson’s Creek first aired, it was clear who was “endgame”. Dawson and Joey were meant to be! They were best friends who didn’t realize they were in love, what’s more perfect than that?

Pacey. Pacey is more perfect than that. Pacey was meant to be a dalliance of Joey’s in between her epic bouts of romance with Dawson. He was merely a distraction, a little drama-fodder, an obstacle in the way of our One True Pair. But he wasn’t, was he? Katie Holmes and Joshua Jackson had chemistry and the fans of the show were ABOUT IT. And thankfully, producers of Dawson’s Creek recognized the natural progression the show was taking, and they ran with it.
I don’t want to drop any spoilers from the early 2000s, but in the end, fans wishes won out and Joey sailed sail off into the proverbial (and at times literal) sunset with Pacey. I call this, “The Pacey Solution.”



So, what shows today are suffering from “Dawson Syndrome?”

How I Met Your Mother

ted and robin.jpg

This one was a doosey. The producers had an endgame in mind before the first episode aired. That’s fine, as a writer I get the desire to know how it all works out. This of course becomes problematic when producers and writers ignore the story, development and chemistry they’ve built over the course of the series. Ted ended up with Robin and Barney reverted back to his womanizing ways, single and alone (romantically, that is).

The Pacey Solution: Sadly, it’s too late for the solution in this case.


The Vampire Diaries

elena and stefan.jpg

I may get some flack for this one, but you guys… Stefan is boring. Well, good Stephan is boring, and I doubt Elena would be cool with dating Ripper Stefan. Maybe. Who knows with that girl. The point is, from the get-go, Stefan seemed to be the endgame.

The Pacey Solution: Damon! Elena and Damon are currently together, which let’s be honest, did we ever think that would actually happen? Now the question is, when the series finally comes to a close (who knows when), will our heroine be with Damon, Stefan, or will she bite her way to independence and go live love-triangle free on an Island somewhere?

elena and damon.jpg

The 100

One of my favourite things about this show is that the drama comes from teens fighting to survive, not love triangles. Don’t get me wrong, there is one, but it’s created by the fandom itself, not necessarily the show. The Dawson Syndrome obviously derives from our hero Finn. Thomas McDonell is a talented actor, and handsome to boot, but unfortunately has zero chemistry with our heroine.

The Pacey Solution: Bellamy or Jasper or Monty or Tim Bartlett the hot extra… anyone who isn’t Finn. Or, no one! Clarke is awesome all on her own, her character doesn’t need a love interest to be captivating.

clarke and bell.jpg


Once Upon A Time

The shippers for this show have created some juicy controversy. Let’s be honest with ourselves, neither of our leading ladies has any chemistry with any of the men they’ve been paired with. Sheriff Graham, Robin Hood, Neil/Bae Captain Hook… it all falls flat.

regina and emma.jpg

The Pacey Solution: If you can’t beat em’, join em’. The fans are calling for a Regina / Emma pairing, and for good reason. These two characters have an undeniable chemistry. This is the biggest leap as far as plausibility, considering the show is derived from Disney, but hey, fans can dream!

Arrow

It’s hard to change course when your source material already has a pre-existing fan base full of shippers. Oliver Queen, (aka The Green Arrow) loves Dinah Laurel Lance (aka the Black Canary) in the comic books. They’re meant to be! It’s unfortunate, then, that Stephen Amell and Katie Cassidy have all the chemistry of a herb garden and an ice cream scoop.

oliver and laurel.jpg

The Pacey Solution: Felicity! You guys, Felicity is the greatest. If every character on this show died except for Felicity, I would watch it. If the show became about Felicity buying post-its and flossing her teeth, I would watch it. Felicity is the greatest. Felicity.

felicity 2.jpg

Those are my picks! What shows do you guys think could use The Pacey Solution??
132 Comments
Comments (132)
Submit
Sort: Latest | Popular
Jun 05, 2015
Yes! SwanQueen! Emma and Regina have truckloads of chemistry and have been since the Pilot. Their relationship is the best developed on the show! Putting them together would be ground breaking and a great way for Disney to dip their toes into LGBT pairings. Slow burn, development, logic, and plot is the reason to ship them. They're endgame. If not, I have no idea what the writers are doing.
2
Reply
Flag
Jun 05, 2015
I love SwanQueen. You are dead on with what needs to happen. At this point, with the failure that is AQ and how badly CS is going, the only thing that'll save Once from being cancelled its SwanQueen
2
Reply
Flag
Jan 01, 2015
I LOVE SwanQueen! I don't usually have ships when I watch TV, I'll have some relationships I like or don't like, but nothing that I get online and have discussions about, but Regina/Emma just stood out to me since day 1. Plus they could make it happen so easily, not quickly mind you, but easily within the already set foundation. It would take longer now that they through in Hook/Hood. But those relationships could very easily be ended, Robin and Regina aren't technically together now (all they have to do is have Robin and Regina not get back together and for Regina to move on and "make her own destiny"), Emma just needs to find out the lies that Hook has been telling her, consistently and once they all add up a woman like Emma would leave him for good. Then using the break from romance both women use to move on is spent developing their friendship and family around Henry (with nice bonding thrown in with the Charmings) and the path for romance is easily accessible. I started shipping them because of the awesome story they have the potential to create but once I got involved I started thinking of this from a representation standpoint too. I'm straight and I'll admit that until joining this fandom LBGTQA representation was something I rarely thought about but now I can't become less aware. These wonderful people have opened my mind and my eyes in so many ways and I want all of them to have their happy ending too.
More+
2
Reply
Flag
Oct 17, 2014
Pacey IS ALWAYS THE SOLUTION to any problem IMO but yes,I totally 100% agree with this article. I wish more shows would have the balls to change an intended endgame when it's the right thing to do! I hate the fact that creative forces behind a show predetermine an endgame OTP before knowing important factors such as chemistry & fan base reactions. True, Pacey Witter & Felicity Smoak (BOTH two of the greatest characters ever!) were not initially planned as 'love interests', but each have far more chemistry (and much bigger fanbases) than the protagonist's intended endgames. I also agree the Clarke/Finn pairing is completely devoid of any chemistry, much rather see a Clarke/Bellamy pairing. I haven't seen OUAT, so no comment there and as far as the Stefan-Elena-Damon pairing goes, I believe it's been clear from the beginning of the show that Stefan/Elena were NEVER the intended endgame. Kevin Williamson would clearly be aware of the pitfalls associated with the development of a love triangle. He knows the '1st love interest' has very little chance of becoming endgame. On Dawson's he clearly 'used' Jen as Dawson's '1st love interest' & an obstacle to come between Dawson & Joey, with the intention that Dawson would ultimately choose '2nd love interest' Joey. However they were paired up too early on the show and after he left the show, the 2nd & far more superior Love Triangle between Dawson-Joey-Pacey emerged, With Dawson being the one relegated to '1st love interest' status. Knowing how that all played out, I highly doubt KW would create a triangle on another show using a formula he knows will fail. Plus Damon/Elena have far more chemistry & a much bigger fanbase, so, no Stelena was never intended to be endgame imo
More+
Reply
Flag
Aug 26, 2014
I agree with all. True Blood also falls into this and the show completely dropped the ball on it. In the case of Dawson's Creek it has been admitted that Joey was always meant to be with Dawson, but they changed their minds along the way. Unlike with True Blood, egos were pushed aside and the show went where it was naturally heading and needed to go.

Vampire Diaries I think is intentional. Like DC it was also made by Kevin Williamson and he definitely learned things. I don't think Elena and Stefan were ever meant to be end game, but that they were meant to appear end game to the audience. The real end game was Damon and Elena from the start. Those writers GET the structure of a successful love triangle maybe a little too well.
1
Reply
Flag
Oct 17, 2014
Totally agree with your assessment regarding Vampire Diaries. I never believed Stelena was going to be the endgame, just that it was made to appear that way and also nothing was more annoying than endgame on True Blood. Although I'm ok with the notion that Eric still lives, undead of course but if there was anyone Sookie should have been 'giving up' for a normal human life, it should have been Eric! That's the way it was in the books, so I have no idea why they put this unnecessary & unearned 'spin' on it
Reply
Flag
Sep 26, 2014
I agree...especially when you consider that Kevin Williamson is one of the major players behind both Dawson's Creek and The Vampire Diaries. He already knows that the bad boy redemption arc and endgame switch is gold.
Reply
Flag
Aug 25, 2014
I'm not a fan of the SwanQueen thing, but you are right - Emma has more chemistry with Regina, than with Hook. Kitsis and Horowitz should let them be toghether.
4
Reply
Flag
Jun 05, 2015
So glad that even if you're not a fan of the pairing, you can admit the truth. Thank you for that. Not many people can do that.
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Olliver loves Laurel=Black Canary?
Isn't Sam the Black Canary? If thats her name, ok it has been a while but the blonde was definetly Black Canary and she definetly had chemistry with Olliver(also she is my facourite on the show :D)
In any Case, Laurel needs to be shot, I am only wondering if you meant Sam, because then no and you are wrong.
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
On the show, Sarah is Laurel's sister, and I don't think she exists in the comics, they've simply split their characters. So yes, I meant Laurel as the apparent "endgame".
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Thank you, I did not know that.
So in the sense of this discussion, that was definetly a good thing :)

Sarah... right, ups
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Did you mean Laurel's sister Sara? In the comics, there were two Black Canaries. Dinah (mom) and Laurel Lance (daughter). so maybe on the show they will split it between the sisters.

Just wondering are you saying Sam bc Laurel (actress Katie Cassidy) had way more chemistry on Supernatural with Sam as Ruby version 1.0?? lol.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
I meant Sarah, just got the name wrong^^
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Nice article. I especially agree with HIMYM, TVD and Arrow examples (I don't watch the other shows). I hate the concept of OTP in general because it's limiting, safe, inflexible, predictable and boring. Take Gossip Girl 's Chuck and Blair, for example. They were fun and exciting at the beginning of their romance, but became insufferable as their on-and-off relationship progressed. Dan was the perfect "Pacey solution" but the writers lacked the balls to see "Dair" through, and caved under pressure. Another example that comes to mind it's True Blood and their "true love" crap. Bill and Sookie were a lackluster couple to begin with, but after the way their relationship imploded, I can't see how we would buy the endgame bullshit that the writers are trying to sell.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Dair could have been done right, but poor writing and too much retconning killed it completely. Not to mention the damage it was doing to the show and Chair.
Reply
Flag
Aug 23, 2014
If Dair simply consisted of Dan and Blair being attracted to each other and having sex, it would have been fine. That Dan was celibate so long for Blair made no sense. That Dan would suddenly prefer Blair over Serena made around no sense. Dan had known for years that Blair is more academic and intellectual than Serena. Blair's side could have made sense. She's pretty much only into Chuck because he's so wealthy and he's great at sex. We know that Dan is great at sex. Check. And Dan could have easily inherited money from Ceclia Rhodes and from Bart Bass -- both seemed to like Dan more than they liked their own descendants. Boom, Dan's now super wealthy. But Dan's preferring Blair over Serena would be a much harder sell.
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Dan/Blair never made much sense from Blair's side though. "Dair" was done because a small but very local minority wanted it. Pretty much Serena/Nate and Dan/Vanessa were done because some book readers wanted that. Gossip Girl lived by 'shipping.
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
"I hate the concept of OTP in general because it's limiting, safe, inflexible, predictable and boring."

Yes! This.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
On tvd,the perfect Pacey solution would be Rebekah.The writers had two opportunities to get them together and they blew it. Rebekah and Stefan are so similar and have such crazy chemistry.It's a shame that the writers are so focused on making everything about the main love triangle,that they don't let the characters experience anything outside of it,with new people,with new storylines and as a result the characters have not matured at all in the last 3 seasons.
1
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
I totally loved Stefan & Rebekah! They had mad chemistry together and when she came onto the show in S3, I was super excited by the idea that they might 'rectangle' out the love triangle with a Delena-Stebekah endgame. Now they seem headed towards a DE endgame but they haven't got a clue 'who' to put Stefan with! I don't like Stefan & Caroline together at all & think the writers totally messed up by not taking advantage of the goldmine they had with Stebekah.
1
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
Yes!Everything you just said!Caroline and Stefan as a couple was stupid.
1
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
It seemed the love of Stefan's life was Katherine and vice versa. That's how things should have gone. Given all the things Damon had done to the people in Elena's life and to Elena herself and given how much in love with Stefan she was, an Elena/Damon 'endgame' didn't make much sense and it was very forced by the middle of season 3.
1
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
this is a reply for your comment below.
the problem is that the writers caved to shipping in general.There have been so many love triangles and squares and whatever since season 3 that all character development went out the window. What's Elena's purpose?Or Stafan's or anyone else's?
The cave scene was a deleted dream scene.You can find it on youtube.
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
Stefan and Katherine should have been given more time together. But why explore that when Stefan can go back to sulking about Elena?
The funny thing is that if Kat had been Elena's friend,she would have given very good advice on her relationship with Damon and other stuff.Better than her real friends even!I've never shipped DE but I after the torture scene in season 4 I will never ship SE either .I can't believe that got swept under the rug.
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
It simply seems the writers and producers 'caved' to the "Delenas". It also seems that they 'downplayed' the sexiness between Stefan and Katherine -- for example, the preview for the Cave Scene (or whatever that was) versus what was actually shown on air.
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Yes, Stefan/Rebekah was so obvious. And then not only did it bizarrely go nowhere, someone Damon ends up having sex with Rebekah. That made no sense because Rebekah considered Damon nothing. And then the whole nonsense Matt/Rebekah thing that seemed to be done simply to give Matt a love interest.

The biggest stupid thing about The Vampire Diaries if that somehow Stefan and Katherine weren't immediately a thing in TVD s2 and after. It was obvious that Stefan was still in love with Katherine and yet he mostly treats her like sh)t for years after.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Don't let me begin with the R/M pairing.He helps kill her and her brothers and she buys him a truck,apologises to him and then buys him a holiday.
Stefan and Katherine:it would be a little too soon for them to have a relationship in season 3,but they should had had more time together in season 5.I've always enjoyed their dynamic.
Reply
Flag
Aug 23, 2014
I actually reason it'd make sense for Stefan to be with Katherine in TVD s2. It got very annoying very fast when Stefan continues to deny that Katherine actually loves him. And Nina and Paul when she's playing Katherine has much better chemistry than Nina and Ian do.
Reply
Flag
Aug 24, 2014
I think that Stefan and Katherine have a lot more chemistry than Stefan and Elena 0_O I know it sounds strange. I liked S&E in the first 2 seasons but S&K is soo much better
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Poll

Reply
Flag
Staff
Aug 21, 2014
I love this. I actually wrote a similar thing about it a few years ago that focused heavily on love triangle aspects and called it the Pacey Witter Theorem. (Great minds think alike and all that.)
4
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
Ha loved that article :)
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
We even used the same picture! I suppose I should have searched the internet to make sure it was actually an original idea before I posted. But like you said, great minds. :)
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Swanqueen sucks, Emma and Hook does have chemistry from the very first episode
HIMYM had the worst end of the world series with this change
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
and what's so ground breaking about CS? Nothing. it's boring, cliche and doesn't stick to memory. Hook is just a love interest. That's all. He has no other purpose on that show. He has no other connections on that show. Plus the whole CS story was badly written, as in nothing epic about that one, seen a million times before, bad guy falls for good girl etc etc. Is like a romanticised Spuffy, but instead of showing us how bad it is, they portray it as the ultimate romance something everything a girl should need/want. At least Spuffy showed it as unhealthy.

SwanQueen is the Pacey solution because it's ground breaking and for a show that tutted itself as ground breaking going CS/OQ is not it, it's cliché and looking at 2x22 and 3x11 it smells of gay panic to go CS/OQ as if they are afraid to be creative and ground breaking and are instead choosing the safe, boring, overused option of bad boy good girl and adultery wins (because I just saw you so I'm gonna leave my wife).

SQ is the only ground breaking romance they have on that show, except Rumbelle - that was good too and original.

You know what else was good and killed in favour of CS? Frankewolf - took to much precious Hook time away. take a moment and imagine those two in a Van Helsing story, hunting vampires and all that shit. That too got thrown aside in favour of boring, cliché romances *cough* CaptainSwan*cough*.
More +
3
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Yep Swan Queen is the Pacey solution and the most original one for OUAT. CS/OQ are cliche and boring. Thnak you for acknowledging that CS/OQ have no chemistry, it an unpopular opinion in the media. If only more people will see that the chemistry lies with Swan Queen and not the cliche romances.

Love the fact that you guys used Sailor Moon in the opening. I love that show so much.
5
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
And the writers said that they wanted to do a ground breaking, going against the grain, version of Disney tails. That is why Snow can kick butt. That is why Little Red Riding Hood is also the Big Bad Wolf. Emma and Regina makes such an epic story. The Savior is meant to break the Evil Queen's curse and save everyone. Who also needs to be saved the most? The Evil Queen. They also share True Love with their son. They have also been the only characters to use magic together which has transcended realms (Emma touching Regina which opened up a portal). Caused a freaking eclipse, and stop an impossible failsafe.

They already have a gold mine in storytelling and they are just wasting away with boring cliches. So sad.
4
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I agreed with everything you just said!
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I've heard of "The Pacey Solution" before, actually... it was an article about the show Arrow that I read it from lol.

I pretty much agree with you on everything here. Just not so much Emma Swan and the E. Queen. Mostly just because I like Capt. Hook. If Emma doesn't want to bang him, I volunteer as tribute! lol

I'm so glad you mentioned 100. That show is really good and I worry that it doesn't get it's due props. I LOVE Clarke, she's like this generation's Buffy or Xena. Well... she's on her way there. She's a strong female character that can have multiple suitors, but really, you watch it because she's just such a badass all on her own account. I really can't wait to see what happens in that show. **Bellamy**Cough** Cough**

I've also heard of the "Delena Problem" where the fan favorite couple gets together too soon... and they frizzle out. Damon and Elena wanting to be together was so much more compelling than when they actually got together. They had such romantic and simple scenes when he was trying to win her over, and when they got together... all the romance just sort of died. I'd like to see something crazy for the endgame. Like Damon ends up falling in love with some sweet little blonde girl who volunteers at an animal shelter, Stephan travels to Italy and settles down with some Italian beauty, and Elena ends up with Elijah, or really crazy, sacrifices herself so that the Salvatore brothers can live. THAT would be different. ... idk I just made that all up. (don't judge me)

Arrow... oh Arrow.... you've become my absolute favorite show ever. I love Felicity. Even if Oliver doesn't end up with Felicity, I don't care(I really do), just as so long as that girl has a happy ending. I would watch a spin off just on Felicity and Sara shoe shopping. I love Felicity and Sara is pretty awesome. The thing is, I know the comics say that Oliver loves Laurel, BUT whoa there... They also got a divorce in the comics, and in another reality, they don't even know each other. So is there a realistic possibility for Oliver and Felicity? Absolutely. I think she loves him unconditionally, but is Oliver really worthy of such a love? Not yet, but I hope that he wants to try become worthy of how much she already loves him(maybe throughout season 3). They balance each other out and she is his light. She supports him without a fault, unlike Laurel, who at first Oliver had to change to earn her love, then he was a murderer in her eyes, and it seems like he's just never good enough to for her to love him. Oliver and Laurel feed each other's darkness and their twisted love history just collapses in upon it's self when they're together. Where am I going with this? Sara told Oliver "you need someone who can harness that light that's still inside of you." and she was right, but that ladies and gentlemen is not Laurel Lance. Is it Felicity? I really hope so, because she obviously loves him very much. :)
More+
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Elena/Damon is not the actual viewers-favorite couple. The ratings went down after "Delena" happened. And, no, Elena only began to start to lean toward Damon when she found out about Katherine, Stefan's Ripper past, Stefan's Ripper present, that Stefan turned Damon into a vampire almost against Damon's will, that Stefan is essentially the main reason they 'lost' Katherine, etc. But then in TVD s3, Elena still in love with Stefan and therefore Elena/Damon ever happening made around zero sense.
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
'Zero Sense'? really? Damon/Elena has only been the trajectory of the entire love triangle since the beginning! Not to mention that Delena exists in the book series as well! It's a love triangle....you seriously NEVER saw a Damon & Elena relationship happening? Wow! And yes they are the fan preferred pairing. The ratings drops are due to Stelena shipper boycotts (yes they are a significant fanbase, but not the majority) but more importantly the non-shippers who stopped watching the show entirely because the storylines went from amazing to crap the last few seasons!
Reply
Flag
Nov 17, 2014
Common sense doesn't seem to be your forte. If Elena was still in love with even Ripper Stefan, that means that Damon should have pretty much never had a chance with her.
Reply
Flag
Oct 23, 2014
Yes, it was obvious that Elena in TVD S3 had feelings for Damon. But she was still in love with Stefan and once it was shown that Elena treated Ripper Stefan much like she treated Stefan in TVD S1, Delena happening made no sense. It was obvious that Elena still wanted to be with Stefan.
Reply
Flag
Nov 02, 2014
Whatever helps you sleep at night. subtext is obviously NOT your forte'
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
As the show was done, once it was shown in TVD s3 that Elena was still in love with Stefan even after all the things he was doing as Ripper Stefan, Elena/Damon ever happening made around zero sense.

"Fans" is short for "fanatic". "Fans" do not make up the entire viewership.

Ratings went down after Elena/Damon was starting to ramp up in season 3. Elena/Damon was entirely forced in season 3 and afterward. The storylines being forced is largely about Elena/Damon. I haven't watched the series since TVD 3.18 because it stopped making sense.
Reply
Flag
Oct 19, 2014
I will agree that the storylines started to suck after S4 & there has been way too much Delena drama but I do not agree that Damon & Elena don't make sense. Elena did not love only stefan in S3, she was also in love with Damon and that was clearly obvious. And yes I know what 'Fan' is short for
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
agree to disagree
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
You've heard of "The Pacey Solution" specifically, or just the general idea? Could you send me the link? I thought I made this up! If It's specifically called "The Pacey Solution", then we've got some serious hive mind going on! :)
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
On a tumbler blog: http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/tagged/olicity
The writer is an amazing analyst and very articulate. I don't think it was called exactly "The Pacey Solution" but something like the Dawson problem, or something along those lines. She makes the same comparison you do about the shows Dawson's Creek, Felicity, and Arrow. (If I recall correctly.)
A good read, enjoy :)
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
annie and jeff in community, rather than britta and jeff
3
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Bellamy and Clarke doe! Also SWAN QUEEN!!!!!!!
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Um, I don't remember Dawson's Creek much, but it seems Joey ending with Pacey actually made sense.

Regarding The Vampire Diaries, Elena/Damon as done on the show simply makes around zero sense. And only a relatively small but very local minority wanted it. And a lot of nonsense apparently had to be made up to even make it make any kind of sense (the whole sire bond nonsense, etc.). Once it was shown that Elena still loved Stefan even after all the Ripper stuff he did, her being with Damon made even less sense than it ever could have. Damon killed Elena's brother.

Regarding Arrow, Oliver/Felicity would simply make no sense and would only be done because, again, a small but very local minority want it to happen.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer did it best when it came to 'shipping (and really it started the whole 'shipping craze). It had great writing. Some viewers wanted Xander and Willow together. In comes Oz and by "Innocence" (B 2.14), the audience became Willow/Oz people. Seth Green decides to leave the show and in comes Tara and Willow/Tara becomes even more popular than Willow/Oz had been. Buffy/Angel was the most popular relationship in BtVS S1-3. Angel gets a spin-off and suddenly Buffy/Spike is sustaining the series after Angel leaves and becomes the preferred relationship among BtVS viewers. Spike/Dru was popular. Juliet Landau wasn't available again until BtVS S5 and suddenly we get "Lovers Walk" (B 3.08) and Faith Lehane. BtVS S4 ramps up Buffy/Spike. And Spike/Dru still remains popular.

The way to write a show is to be good enough and hire actors who actually have chemistry so that the audience will like whatever relationship the series wants the characters to have. If Faith the Vampire Slayer ever happened, it's likely the writers would have gotten the audience to love Faith/Spike or whatever relationships they were going to have.

Nowadays, it seems various series simply decide to 'give in' to whatever 'shippers are the most vocal. And that results in Elena/Damon and probably soon Oliver/Felicity.

More+
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
Oh you mean that 'relatively small local *cough VOCAL cough* minority that were powerful enough to not only get Damon & Elena nominated for a Peoples Choice Award for best on screen chemistry but also powerful enough to get them THE WIN while simultaneously battling against multiple powerful fandoms such as CaptainSwan, Caskett & Klaine, all at the same time that the Stelena fandom (the ACTUAL vocal minority) couldn't even get through the first nomination round? You seriously need to do some research on this issue because you clearly don't know what you're talking about *rolling my eyes*
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
"Delenas" are super fanatics. That doesn't mean that they make up the majority of what was the viewership of TVD.

If "Delena" was actually more popular than Elena/Stefan, the ratings would have gone up after Elena and Damon got together. They instead went down.
Reply
Flag
Nov 02, 2014
Logic is obviously a very foreign concept for you in addition to the truth...peace out
Reply
Flag
Nov 17, 2014
Simple math seems to be a foreign concept to you.
Flag
Oct 19, 2014
Why would they have gone up? that makes no sense! Outside people that didn't watch the show weren't going to start watching because of DE & SE'rs did stop watching, not all but most but the show still has millions of viewers worldwide. The ratings only assess 'live' views in the U.S. only, not people who watch online or DVR or International viewers. And Delena always has been more popular than Stelena. If they cut Delena out of the story right now, then you would see a significant drop. The 500,000 SE'rs who come back to the show won't make up for the 1.5 million who would stop watching
Reply
Flag
Oct 23, 2014
Delena wasn't more popular than Elena/Stefan. If Delena was more popular, the ratings wouldn't have gone down after Delena happened.
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
"only a relatively small but very local minority wanted it" ...and this is based off of what pseudo facts?
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
The ratings.
Reply
Flag
Aug 26, 2014
Most show ratings start going down the longer a show is on the air. Also, the writing just kept getting worse and worse. It had nothing to do with who was with who imo.

I hate Buffy and Angel as a couple but I was glued to the TV every week because the writing was fantastic. I'm a delena shipper, but watching the show the last 2 seasons has larger been a chore because of bad writing.
Reply
Flag
Oct 10, 2014
The main problem with "Delena" is that it doesn't make sense. The writers could have easily made it make sense and they seemed to be going that direction.

Stefan when his humanity is 'turned off' is Ripper Stefan and Damon when his humanity is 'turned off' still has some humanity. Season 3 was going well with that until Elena still loves Stefan as much as she had before. After that, it made around zero sense that she could ever love Damon more. And things went down from there.

The writers suddenly seemed to simply decide to appease the 'Delenas' and let logic go away. And then they decided to kill the best character in the show: Katherine.
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
I usually don't count the ratings. Certain shows, especially the ones on the CW, usually go down after a while anyway. Besides, the vampire craze is dying down, so...
Reply
Flag
Aug 23, 2014
Ratings go down when viewers no long like and/or no longer want to watch the series. There seems to be pretty much a direct correlation to 'Delena'-focus resulting in lowered ratings.

If the viewers actually wanted Elena/Damon to happen, ratings would have gone up after it happened.

And with DVD/BR and Netflix and such, ratings for shows can actually increase.

Related to this, I suspect that ratings will go down for Arrow if "Olicity' happens.
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I love Felicity!!
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
awesome post! loved it. totally agree... and I love the name: "The Pacy Solution"... i hope it becomes a trend...lol
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I love you. This is perfect and I agree 100% with EVERYTHING. A million thumbs up.
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I'd like to bring up Smallville, one that definitely benefited from moving on. In the beginning the endgame was obviously Clark and Lana. But Lana was a boring and flat character that the writers didn't really flush out or maybe it was bc KK was too green? I can't remember if she decidedly left the show or if the showrunners wanted to Pacey her way out but THANK GOD.

True Blood is ending this Sunday and I'm feeling like I'm getting HIMYMed. it is definitely suffering from the endgame coupling of Bill and Sookie. Can we say retconned? I don't even think the Pacey solution would work here bc Sookie does not deserve Eric. lol. The heroine/main character has devolved into a much disliked character in the fandom.
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I loved the that Sarah and Holder ended up toghether in The Killing. I mean there were no kisses but the writers didn't want a final cliché.

As it seems, Eric and Sookie won't end up toghether and it's so sad, because I was hoping for their sexy sex scene all over again.

Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I love felicity partially because she's allowed to be platonic! Not all women have to be love interests!!
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I totally agree with what you said about Arrow. Felicity is the best.
4
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I have seen shows where the end-game couple works very well:
Sarah and Chuck on Chuck - I loved those two together and that their relationsship was so perfect.

Peter Bishop and Olivia (Fringe) - great chemistry and perfect together and they never got boring.

Castle and Beckett. I also love them together even now that they are together

Piper and Leo from Charmed. I loved them together and hated when they weren't together. I liked that their relationsship just came naturally (it at least seemed that way to me). I on the other hand hated Phoebe and Cole and was so happy when he finally died even if he might have been Phoebe's one true love and could have been end-game love.

Josh and Donna on West Wing - for me they were perfect together and I loved that they ended up together but I really don't know if they were an end-game couple or if that was the fans.

Numb3rs - Charlie and Amita - I don't know if they were meant for each other but they were perfect from the beginning.
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I feel like there is a difference in those shows because none of the side romances were ever really serious. There is no ship for those people with anyone else that I'm aware of. I mean who was Peter Bishop gonna end up with, Bolivia, Astrid, no. Some shows I think the one true pairing works because the show doesn't even attempt to put in any serious filler relationships in a way that would make you get attached to them.
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
You are probably right. When I think about it I don't really think that I see that many shows with those problems. I do watch The 100 and like it but really couldn't care who Clarke ends up with.
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
This comment has been removed.
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
RE; Phoebe and Cole. I liked them together in the beginning but they brought him back one too many times... where it just got old.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
So, after reading this post yesterday, I've thought about it, and I've decided that I don't believe in "One True Pairings" on principle, particularly as a structuring device for a show. Mostly they foster overly elaborate and artificially prolonged courtships that must linger on and on and on and on as the show continues to get renewed. Even when the leads have (or develop) solid chemistry, it just seems lazy most of the time.

Eventually, the shows have to bite the bullet and commit, but these often succumb to the OTHER problem with OTPs: relationships are very often not all that interesting when the couple gets together. This, incidentally, is the major pitfall of most comic book romances: the open-ended time frame. Consider middling-but-slagging procedurals Bones and Castle, or sitcoms like New Girl. The story of Jess and Nick getting together was a series high, but the show has struggled some in the wake of it. The Mindy Project potentially faces the same challenge now that Mindy and Danny are a couple. Then there's House, which didn't entirely know what to do after House and Cuddy made it a thing.

I would also like to argue the phenomenon of the "endgame" couple that doesn't happen. The greatest example I can think of is Kara Thrace and Lee Adama from Battlestar Galactica, whose volatile relationship is continually undermined by major mistakes, emotional frakkery, and scared stupidity from both parties. They are so hopelessly right for one another and they're easily the greatest loves of each others' lives, but they just can't get it together, and, most importantly, the show is better for it.

Greatest successful endgame couple: Olivia Dunham and Peter Bishop from Fringe.

Best endgame couple that never got their endgame (because of cancellation): Sophie and Ben from Carnivàle.

Couple most in need of a "Pacey Solution": Ichabod and Katrina Crane from Sleepy Hollow. She may be trapped in some kind of supernatural limbo and he may be dealing with their apocalyptically minded, resurrected but older-than-he-is son, but these two are the single most unbelievable married couple on television.
More+
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I can give you one who worked perfectly.


3
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
Just an FYI. the potion is to see if they are compatible. It is sweet when they are
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I've never seen Farscape, but this clip just made me want to.
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Amen. It certainly piqued my interest. I'd heard good things about Farscape, but that was hot.

The all-leather spacewear is a little weird.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Harpier, Toni - seriously drop by our Community. We are about 5 epsodes (and a miniseries) from being done. We have excellent recaps of all the best of Farscape up there. In the last few months, I did a lot of Gifs and I editied abuch of video. In fact - i have several episodes up on Vimeo that I did for a friend, but you are welcome to check it out for free (I put up some of the best of Farscape - but was asked to put up the whole 2nd season...working on that). You'll have to look for the episode/season # to watch them in order [Ep name and then SEASONxEp #] like - (The Locket 02x16) etc...

Edshrinker's Videos
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
LOL. I read production notes where they shop at the "Sydney (Australian production) House of Fetish". That kills me - but in seeing the outfits it made sense.

I reopened the community here just for the rewatch. Farscape is the best SciFi I have ever seen (and yes, I grew up with TOS Trek). I list it as my favorite show ever (LOST a close second). It is Sci-Fi with an amazing love story at it's heart. They don't use a lot of CGI (except for space battles obvs) but rely on the Jim Henson Creature Shop for the aliens. And it has a "realness" that won my heart over.
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Drop by the Community here. We are nearly to the end of a rewatch of the whole series, doing reviews and recaps like when it first aired. You can look over the recaps and see what you think!

Farscape Rewatch Recaps
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I, for one, have always seen Dawson's Creek as a cosmic lesson on soulmates: just because you find one, doesn't mean you're meant to be together. It was the same for Joey as it was for Dawson in all this.

On that note, I've always seen Lost as a cosmic joke on love triangles: sometimes, the girl takes so long to make up her mind, the guy takes "the choice" away from her, and literally jumps ship for he respects himself too much for it.

Now, that is not the same as to kill off one corner of a love triangle only because the show went past the contract renewal point (Grey's Anatomy, Revenge, etc.), or because its an easier choice than to get a definite answer (Vampire Diaries, Once Upon a Time, etc.)

Perhaps the biggest cosmic joke I've seen on this has been Jaime Lannister, since Game of Thrones made him so focussed on true love its easy to root for the character as one would for Veronica Mars, Sookie Stackhouse or Meredith Grey. Sometimes, I almost forget he’s not a girl, that his role is to find her rather than be found by her, to prove himself rather than to let her prove herself for him, to figure it out rather than get figured out.

I guess that's what makes him a touchstone for shipping these days: I want him to figure it out, I wish for him to prove himself worthy of whoever it is that he's meant to be with, I hope for him to find her (and I hope for her to find him too) but, most of all, I want for them to realize its reciprocated before getting caught up in the easy way out and kill off one corner of the love triangle
More+
1
Reply
Flag
Oct 18, 2014
Ha...totally agree with your assessment especially of Dawson's & Lost's Love Triangles. By the end of Lost, Kate had waffled back and forth so many times it was absurd. I didn't even take her professing her love for Jack seriously being that basically Sawyer left her in the dust long before that point and Jack was her only option. I kind of wonder if she spent the rest of her days before she died (and went to that crazy purgatory) still debating over she really loved. Frankly I don't think she loved either of them
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Gossip died from this. I don't know if it was pandering to the fans or just what the writers wanted but the end couples should never have ended up together, no matter how good the chemistry was. That said I didn't mind it happening because I was a fan of Dan and Serena, its just realistically, they could not have gotten over the past. Chuck or Blair either. The most realistic couple were Rufus and Lily, who whilst in love, couldn't let their stronger moral impulses guide them. It may be that TVD goes down the same route
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
When I watched TVD, I absolutely loathed Damon/Elena, because as much as I loved watching Damon's character, he was a loathsome person who had traits of being abusive and semi-rapey and I just thought Elena was already pathetic enough as it was, that it would be truly low if she ever dated him. Now, apparently, Damon and Stefan have switched personalities and Elena has been there and back again, so I guess it doesn't matter? Whatever.

A show where the endgame worked was Piper/Leo from Charmed. Granted, after Piper met Leo, she had all of one hiccup - Dan - that was another guy, so it wasn't like the writers tried too hard to make us think that they wouldn't last forever and ever. After Piper/Leo got officially together in the season 2 finale, the only thing that ever tore them apart was supernatural entities, and even then, death couldn't keep them apart! So romantic.

I completely agree with Arrow. Granted, I actually don't mind Oliver/Sara, which is still Arrow/Canary that everybody calls out for. Oliver/Sara worked in a way that both of them aren't the greatest people to begin with, so they aren't bringing each other down. And neither of their personalities changed thanks to being with one another. They were both still badasses who shared kisses every once in a while. It was a comfortable fit, one that I could definitely get used to if Olicity can't or won't happen. Truthfully... Olicity is my OTP in theory, but in practice? It scares me. I don't know if it would actually work, and I worry that it would bring down Felicity's character.

Also, another OTP that works - Castle. Caskett was always quintessential "end game" from Day One. And from Day One, every other character that came around was gag-fodder until they finally came together. Some people say that now that they're together, the show lost something? But not to me. To me, it's comfortable, and it's sweet. And I love their moments of just being adorable.

To me, chemistry between actors is number one. Then the writing. Then... You have to get your characters together before you hit that moment of, "OH COME ON!" with them somehow missing each other all over again. Because once fans no longer care, then you're screwed.

Also, I disagree with Swan/Graham. I thought Swan/Graham was amazing. Hell, I thought Swan could have gone away and the show coulda worked with Graham as the main character, he was that interesting all on his own. But then he died, and the show died with him (for me).
More+
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
I always found Piper and Leo a bit bland, but you make a good point nonetheless, they are a rare example when a couple got together very early on in their series' run - and for the most part their relationship remained intact and mildly entertaining throughout (although like you said, I'm sure the supernatural entities helped with this).
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
I really hope Elena ends up with Damon, the two of them are good together and let's be honest, Stefan is about as interesting as a plank of wood.
4
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
"Felicity! You guys, Felicity is the greatest. If every character on this show died except for Felicity, I would watch it. If the show became about Felicity buying post-its and flossing her teeth, I would watch it. Felicity is the greatest. Felicity."

This is quite possibly the "truest" statement in the history of the world.
8
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Poll

Poll



1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I feel like your first question is almost a trick question. I agree characters SHOULD be interesting enough that we don't need a romantic relationship for them to feel like complete people.
But I also have to admit it has become rare to actually see well written characters in that way lately. Even some that are awesome without being in a relationship end up in one, I believe because the writers can always fall back on the drama that can be created in relationship.
I would say the problem with OTP's can be chemistry, obviously if it isn't there it isn't going to work. But ultimately I think they can get boring because they tend to be dragged out or there is the "bad writing" / cliche of trying to create drama in the relationship only to bring them back together later and so on so forth, it just keeps going back and forth.
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Your first poll raises a very important point. I think for any relationship to work on a television series both characters already need to be fully developed and have their own identities before becoming a couple.

A possibility why OTP's don't work as often as writers may like is because, as the How I Met Your Mother problem suggests, the writers have already planned from the beginning of the series that two of the characters will be the OTP by the end of the series. Creating a character in that context is not good because you are defining them by their relationship with another person, instead of on their own - often resulting in two-dimensional characters which in turn can create a bad OTP's, with their lack of chemistry etc. When a character is described or called by either writers on fans as the 'girlfriend or boyfriend' instead of their name early on in their existence, you know there's a serious problem.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Poll

Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
I think that the One True Pairing works with good writing. For example, on Arrow, there is simply too much baggage between Laurel and Oliver to work out (especially since she doesn't know that he got someone pregnant). However, on most sitcoms, the OTP trope seems to work (unless it's Ross and Rachel). However, part of the problem is that the writers fear that what happened on a show like Moonlighting could happen to them.


Now, these articles apply mostly to movies and comics, but they may provide some insight here as well:
http://io9.com/heres-why-superhero-movie-romances-suck-1620807055

and

http://io9.com/the-real-reason-why-superhero-romances-are-always-doomed-1621228898
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Do people think Leonard and Penny are endgame on The Big Bang Theory?

Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
Lets see: the show started when he first met her, it gained momentum as they grew closer together, it reached its 100th episode when they got back together, it's reaching its golden years now that they are planning to get married...

...I'd say the math check out.
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
That's one of the hardest to call. Sometimes they seem great together then a scene later I'm wondering what she see's in the whiny little twerp. They are certainly no Howard and Bernadette!
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
I'm assuming Jess and Nick on New Girl are endgame. I'd say it's too late for them to introduce another male character fans will think she belongs with more than him. The same goes for Jake and Amy on Brooklyn Nine-Nine (and possibly Charles and Rosa).

The difficult part will be keeping the characters and their interactions/ relationships interesting as the respective series continue.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Emily and Jack are obviously endgame for Revenge, which is a shame because Jack is so boring. At least they've gotten rid of Aiden so now the writers at least have stopped trying to bide their time with even more boring and unrealistic couplings for Emily. Until they introduce another male love interest for her, which I'm sure they'll do.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Buffy sort of avoided it by having her end up with neither Angel or Spike.
6
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Yah Joss likes to break peoples hearts. Though I do respect it, it is kinda bold to be like nope, no happy endings just deal with all the tragedy.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I get your point, but to be fair, that wasn't the plan. There were multiple attempts to get SMG on Angel before it finished its run, but they never panned out for one reason or another. Especially in the Buffy finale, they seemed to indicate that Angel was going to be the one for her, but weren't able to really follow up on it. Even if they did have her end up with no one, that's one of the dangling threads they left that I really wanted some resolution to.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
This is simply all wrong. Joss Whedon prefers Buffy/Spike to Buffy/Angel. He has Buffy choosing Angel and shooing Angel. Buffy essentially was going to die there in the Hellmouth rather than live without Spike. Buffy's last line and last word in the TV series is "Spike." And there's simply zero indication that if SMG actually did guest star in Angel s5 that Joss wouldn't have had Buffy preferring Spike. Even the comics lean to her preferring Spike over Angel.
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I was hoping for someone to make the connection to Buffy and how the series went past the OTP thing. I should have expected nothing less by you, No1Slayerette!

The solution, however, only works in TV time only if you have enough, well, time, i.e. seasons. BtVS was able to efficiently portray Buffy's loves both with Angel and Spike without making them feel forced (and with time even for Riley somewhere in the middle), because it had enough time to make it seem natural.

I enjoy "star-crossed" love stories, but I also like being surprised by series that don't follow the easy - or expected - way out.
5
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I basically agree with this, and I'm very happy that Buffy ended its run without needing some elaborate romantic resolution, though both Angel and Spike play key roles in the last Sunnydale almost-apocalypse. BUT...despite the considerable and rabid fan support that the relationship continues to inspire, I never was able to buy Buffy and Angel as a couple, an infatuation perhaps, but not the great epic love they seemed to think it was. But the show continued to insist, even at the very end, that Angel and Buffy were somehow the loves of each others' lives.

Admittedly, much of this might have to do with the fact that however much I love Buffy, I don't so much love Buffy. I find her an intensely compelling and dynamic character, but one who's sometimes insufferably self-righteous. The same part of her that makes her a hero makes her intractably unwilling to work well with others, even condescending to her friends on a regular basis. In the end, I like all of her major love interests—Angel, Spike, and, yes, even Riley—more than Buffy herself. In other words, I found it very satisfying that Buffy ended up unattached both because it subverted the expectation that a series finale would necessitate a romantic happily-ever-after and because I don't actually think Buffy quite deserved any of her boyfriends.
More +
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 22, 2014
Buffy risked her life to save Angel in "Graduation Day Part II" (B 3.22). Buffy was going to storm the Initiative to save Riley. Buffy literally let Spike get away with murder. In BtVS S7, she essentially risked all of the Scoobies, her sister, and perhaps the world to save Spike. She removes the chip.

Angel, Riley, and Spike are all worse boyfriends than she was a 'bad' girlfriend to them.

Regarding Buffy's making things 'all about her', she's the Slayer and has to save the world. Her keeping Angel alive did result in the Angelus stuff -- and the stuff in BtVS S8. Her decisions do have a large impact on things. She's perhaps too hard on herself at times, but her life is extremely stressful.

Buffy's under no obligation to be in love with Riley. Riley was the a-hole in that situation. Instead of talking to her about his concerns, he risks his life, he risks becoming a vampire, and he gives her that ultimatum. Then in "As You Were" (B 6.15), he acts as if she's his underling, he doesn't tell her about the actual mission, he doesn't tell her about his wife and therefore luxuriates in her flirting with him.

It also must be said that Angel, Riley, and Spike wouldn't as likely been as loyal and helpful to Buffy had they never gotten with her.
More +
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
"... however much I love Buffy, I don't so much love Buffy"!


This is it, very well put and in a nutshell. Thank you for saying that and now I know that I'm not alone. And I agree with your analysis, which is spot on.

As to her love affairs: With Angel, she was the stary-eyed, head-over-heels teenager experiencing first love and having to find the power to grow up and make some hard choices.

With Riley, she had to become the "mother" in a relationship. And with Spike, she was going through the "mean girl" phase in her life, experimenting with bad boys and finding the power to get out of and abusing relationship. Admittedly the Spike phase is my favorite, probably because I liked Spike as a character and becasue season 6 was probably one of the strongest (if not the strongest) in the series.

But, in my humble opinion, I never thought she pulled it off, for all the reasons you refer to. The other relationships in the series (and there were many of them) were usually much more interesting, no matter whether they succeded or failed (and let's be honest, most of them failed).

Thank you for the comment.


More +
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Wow. Buffy wasn't good enough for someone who committed statutory rape and was only able to be good because he was cursed? Buffy wasn't good enough for someone who for years tried to kill her and later attempted to rape her?
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I'll clarify a little bit. I didn't mean my final comment to be as much an evaluation of her "goodness" and virtue as a human being. For all her many faults, Buffy is a good person. Angel and Spike—albeit for supernatural reasons that nevertheless sometimes entail troubling metaphorical implications—are, at least periodically, monsters, murderers and predators. Their moral righteousness and their responsibility for it, since both are periodically soulless, is difficult to tease out.

Buffy may be a good person, but she's a terrible, terrible girlfriend. Like she is with her other friends, the rest of the Scoobies, she's an relationship black hole. She makes everything about her, often and repeatedly failing to recognize the needs of those around her, however noble her intentions or pressing her own personal concerns. It's the same quality that makes her instinctively accept responsibility and obligation for everything, that makes her a strong protector for Sunnydale, but it makes her a selfish friend and lover.

In the end, and in a surprising revelation that shifted my estimation and appreciation of him significantly, Riley articulates it best (from S5ep3, "The Replacement"): "Yeah, I'm well aware of how lucky I am. Like lottery lucky. Buffy's like nobody else in the world. When I'm with her, it's like I'm split in two. Half of me is on fire, going crazy if I'm not touching her. The other half is so still and peaceful, just perfectly content. Just knows, this is the one. But she doesn't love me."

She thinks she loves Angel for the romantic hero she thinks he is, the noble lothario from Season 1, whose past is something separate and separable, not something that has defined who he still is. Because Buffy's never asked to truly compromise herself, because she makes mistakes but no regrets that really define her and shape her, she doesn't understand Angel really all that well. Angel and Faith understand one another; Buffy is something else.
More +
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
Your first para': I kind of disagree but not strongly. I liked her with Angel but then she was so young the infatuation thing I can understand, however I found Riley boring and the Spike relationship was twisted.

Your second para': Yes. I always found her the least likeable character on the show after the first season, maybe second. Dawn was annoying but she was obviously background noise in comparison. As you said she was compelling and dynamic, a complicated character well portrayed by SMG, but likeable? No.
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
I'm interested to hear what people think of one love triangle that will be ending for could next week in Sookie, Bill, and Eric on True Blood. Sookie and Bill are obviously endgame, and I like Bill, but I know majority of the fandom hates him, and Sookie, too, for that matter. Eric is a fan favourite so it's possible she could end up with him, but I'm not really fussed to be honest, as long as the episode is surprising and keeps me on the edge of my seat.

At least they've basically removed any chance of Sookie ending up with the character she ended up with in the novels.
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Yes, I suspect you'll get some hate from the Stefena fans, but I couldn't agree with you more - Stefan is boring (not Ripper though, he's fun!) I like her with Damon too, but I do think for end game purposes Stefan is still what will end up happening. I can't see any other alternatives - and if someone mentions Matt I will barf.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
I actually really loved Ted and Robin getting together (I know I'm probably the only one). I only watched the series a handful of times each season, and then the entire last season, but I always found it odd that Robin wasn't the titular Mother yet the series decided to devote so much time to her and Ted's relationship. Having them end up together made sense in that respect, whereas had someone else been the Mother, I would have been annoyed that the series had wasted so much time focusing on a character that wasn't her, in Robin.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 18, 2014
Interesting post. I've never watched Dawson's Creek but I do get your point. For TVD, I would love it if Elena officially moved on from the brothers by series' end and for Arrow, the only thing I can say is Olicity FTW!!! :) The only one show I can think of that has used the Pacey Solution is Veronica Mars. LoVe forever!
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
Veronica Mars, like, triple-Paceys the audience out, but the greatest thing about it is they ALL make sense and ALL seem right for the moment. *SPOILERS FROM ALL THREE SEASONS AND THE FILM FOLLOW*

Veronica's sweet first-love romance with Duncan is sincere and loving. Even when a combination of circumstance conspire to make their relationship emotionally and socially impossible, their affection remains. When she helps him escape with his daughter never to return, it felt bittersweet but inevitable. Even though they were romantically linked at the time, it felt like a goodbye for very close friends more than great lovers.

Meanwhile, her on-and-off relationship with Duncan was interrupted by the series' first "Pacey Solution," Duncan's best friend and Lily's boyfriend at the time of her death: Logan Echolls. Veronica and Logan had such intense chemistry in their verbal sparring and clever hate-battles early in Season 1 that in the emotional heat of a perilous moment, a thank-you kiss sparks their non-friendship into a tempestuous, passionate affair. But once again, circumstances conspire against the lovers, and their combined immaturity and inability to let things go breaks them up. No one quite makes such spectacular mistakes as Logan and Veronica.

Then, Veronica meets Piz. At first Piz seems like a poor, puppy-love substitute for Logan, but quite honestly, Piz grew on me not only as a character, who I liked from the beginning, but also as a love interest equal to Mars. In other words, despite the fraught look Veronica unguardedly gives Logan in the closing episode of the series when he attacks the asshole who released her sex tape, it didn't surprise me that 10 years later, at the beginning of the movie, Veronica and Piz were still together.

And then AGAIN, Veronica returns to Neptune, to a grown-up and infinitely more mature Logan. When he once again starts a fist fight defending her honor over the same sex tape, this time Piz joins the fray. What I love about returning to Logan is that they have history and heat still from their fiery affair when they were still teenagers, but the things that bring them together this time are much more adult. It's familiar, to them as us, but in many ways its a new romance.
More +
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I haven't seen the movie yet and it is killing me. But I have to admit I NEVER liked Piz. I didn't mind Duncan, I loved Logan, but I never even liked Piz as a character. I had a lot of issues with the 3rd season in general and I largely have tried to block it from my memory. But I see your points and I am really looking forward to the move and the Dick web series.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
You need to watch the movie! I enjoyed it a lot seeing as I've probably watched it 6 times now.
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Not a fan of season 3 myself, and while I wanted to hate Piz for breaking up LoVe, he was just such a like-able character and actor that he surprisingly grew on me. LoVe is totally endgame though!
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I know a ton of fans didn't like Piz, but I honestly thought he was a good character. However, I didn't like him with Veronica but I much preferred them as friends.
1
Flag
Aug 18, 2014
Veronica Mars is a GREAT example!!
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 19, 2014
Honestly, V Mars will never die in my mind. For a long while, i really thought she'd end up with Duncan, and then the whole Logan thing almost came out of nowhere mid season and i was like, WTF! I love it! Could not have done something so tricky on another show and gotten away with it, because as a shipper, i didn't know i wanted Logan and Veronica together UNTIL they got together!
4
Reply
Flag
Aug 18, 2014
Thanks! I'm kinda looking forward to the spin-off. :)
Reply
Flag
Aug 18, 2014
Loved this post! Thanks! I do believe that producers should listen to fans. Isn't the point to make the audience love the show? ;)
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
I agree in part. I am ok with a show listening to the fans, or at least giving the relationship a chance if it makes sense. For example, as much as I think SwanQueen has the most chemistry and would be awesome, I also realistically would think the writers a little crazy if they actually fulfilled that wish because it would come out of nowhere. Even something like Sterek from Teen Wolf, Stiles has been stated as a bisexual by the creator, but the character on the show hasn't stated it explicitly and Derek's character has not even been rumoured to be gay or bi, so it would almost detract from the show to fulfill those relationships.
Other shows I do think they could work. There was no reason to do what they did on How I Met Your Mother, that show went longer than expected and the characters developed so much, so to revert back was an insult. I'm 50/50 on this one.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I'm not sure I actually agree with this. I'd like to think that showrunners are sensitive to the way their work is received by both critics and viewers, but I always think that they should prioritize the story they're telling over fan expectations and demands. Sometimes, probably quite often, these two things overlap, since fans are frequently some of the most astute and savvy viewers, but sometimes I don't think fans get it right.

It also eliminates the pleasure of a good surprise to cater too closely to fan demand. Instead, prove to your audience why you're telling the story you're telling. A good example from a current show is the fan divide in Teen Wolf between Lydia/Stiles and Malia/Stiles 'shippers. Despite a lot of fan clamoring since Season 1 to hook up Stiles and his longtime crush Lydia, Jeff Davis and the writers have opted for Malia as a love interest and to continue to develop a deepening friendship with Lydia. Despite some initial backlash, the writers have done so well developing his relationship with the newer character that it has won over many, many fans.

This is why I think fan fiction can be such a fruitful and creative outlet for this kind of speculation. It's a forum for fans to arrange their favorite hook-ups but it doesn't need to challenge the canon.
More +
2
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
Good thoughts. Maybe then the potential problem is how writers develop the relationship which is the endgame. I do not watch TeenWolf....should I?
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
Harpier is right Teen Wolf is awesome. I am going to warn you that the first season and a little bit of the second were hard to take because of the very puppy love romance between the lead. But as pointed out the supporting characters are so awesome that I was able to watch the show and still love it as a whole. One of my favourite episodes is still from the first season, you will know it when you get there, it is the parent teacher night and it is really well done and showcases the characters nicely. There is just so much to love about Teen Wolf, you should definitely watch it. The seasons are only 12 episode arcs so it is actually really addictive. You should also read Price's photo recaps of each episode, because I promise they will only make you love the show more.
1
Reply
Flag
Aug 20, 2014
I recommend Teen Wolf to just about everybody...as long as you're not actively turned off by supernatural teen drama. While working very soundly within the genre, it has systematically (and quietly) exploded a lot of the stupid tropes teen dramas tend to propagate, and it gets more and more ambitious about doing so as the show progresses. Characters, even minor ones that seem predictably one-note when first introduced, are quality, and the accumulation of detail for each of them makes it really worth keeping track of them all. Even in the weakest episodes, individual scenes really excel.

If you're interested in watching, I strongly recommend trying to catch up from the beginning. Jumping in right now (toward the final third of Season 4) would be very, very disorienting, so much so that I'm not sure how much fun it would be.

Oh, and best TV parents!
3
Reply
Flag
Aug 21, 2014
BEST TV parents!!!!
1
Flag
Follow this Topic
Members
273